In this episode, Chrisha and Catherine catch up on what's been going on behind the scenes with each other, the writers' and actors' strikes and victories, the ongoing trash-fires at networks and streamers, and their gratitude to folks behind The Winchesters for giving fans a thoughtful and healing ending.
The main part of the episode focuses on the various members of the Monster Club:
Mary: Her similarities with the Akrida Queen's backstory and how her journey of healing led to different outcomes; her time in the portal and the impact of seeing all possible versions of herself; her decision to go with John at the end and the importance of Mary being the one to make that decision; and her journey from being trapped to living in freedom.
John: His decision to address his anger and work on healing it; his state of being completely lost after he arrived home from Vietnam, and the importance of Dean and Henry's letter; the healing that's happened in his relationship with Millie; and his transition from running towards danger to running towards hope.
Lata: Her immediate decision to put everything else aside to figure out how to help Ada; her strength/perceptiveness while under the control of Akrida Kyle; the way her attack on Joan complicates her pacifism; her importance in building community; & her journey from feeling less-than because of her pacifism to understanding her importance.
Carlos: His immediate and ongoing Dean thirst; his voyage from needing to be the front man to being part of the band; his affection for Ada and the important role he played in stopping her from jumping the gun with the crystal; and his role in saving the day by figuring out how to bring Baby back out of the world between worlds.
Millie: Her new communicative relationship with John; her continued strength, and the insight and help she brings as a mechanic to the Monster Club; and her care and concern for his relationship with Mary.
Ada: The loss and restoration of her soul; the importance of her openness about the sacrifice the crystal requires; and the way the Monster Club rallies around her, supports her, and protects her in a way that we think she isn't used to.
The Winchesters audio clip credits: The CW
Supernatural audio clip credits: The CW
Music clip credits: "Exile" by Taylor Swift
Follow us on Twitter @TheFangirlBiz and on Bluesky @thefangirlbiz.bsky.social
Join our Kofi Discord community at $1/month: https://ko-fi.com/thefangirlbiz/tiers
Support our podcast by buying our new merch: https://www.redbubble.com/people/thefangirlbiz/shop
Thanks for listening!
In this episode, Chrisha and Catherine catch up on what's been going on behind the scenes with each other, the writers' and actors' strikes and victories, the ongoing trash-fires at networks and streamers, and their gratitude to folks behind The Winchesters for giving fans a thoughtful and healing ending.
The main part of the episode focuses on the various members of the Monster Club:
Mary: Her similarities with the Akrida Queen's backstory and how her journey of healing led to different outcomes; her time in the portal and the impact of seeing all possible versions of herself; her decision to go with John at the end and the importance of Mary being the one to make that decision; and her journey from being trapped to living in freedom.
John: His decision to address his anger and work on healing it; his state of being completely lost after he arrived home from Vietnam, and the importance of Dean and Henry's letter; the healing that's happened in his relationship with Millie; and his transition from running towards danger to running towards hope.
Lata: Her immediate decision to put everything else aside to figure out how to help Ada; her strength/perceptiveness while under the control of Akrida Kyle; the way her attack on Joan complicates her pacifism; her importance in building community; & her journey from feeling less-than because of her pacifism to understanding her importance.
Carlos: His immediate and ongoing Dean thirst; his voyage from needing to be the front man to being part of the band; his affection for Ada and the important role he played in stopping her from jumping the gun with the crystal; and his role in saving the day by figuring out how to bring Baby back out of the world between worlds.
Millie: Her new communicative relationship with John; her continued strength, and the insight and help she brings as a mechanic to the Monster Club; and her care and concern for his relationship with Mary.
Ada: The loss and restoration of her soul; the importance of her openness about the sacrifice the crystal requires; and the way the Monster Club rallies around her, supports her, and protects her in a way that we think she isn't used to.
The Winchesters audio clip credits: The CW
Supernatural audio clip credits: The CW
Music clip credits: "Exile" by Taylor Swift
Follow us on Twitter @TheFangirlBiz and on Bluesky @thefangirlbiz.bsky.social
Join our Kofi Discord community at $1/month: https://ko-fi.com/thefangirlbiz/tiers
Support our podcast by buying our new merch: https://www.redbubble.com/people/thefangirlbiz/shop
Thanks for listening!
Disclaimer: Welcome to The Fangirl Business: A Supernatural Podcast. The information presented in this podcast is intended to be for entertainment and educational purposes only. It should never be used in place of advice given by a mental health or medical professional or as a substitute for mental health treatment. If you are struggling with a mental health issue, please seek treatment from a mental health professional in your area.
Intro Instrumental Rock Music: “Play the Game” by VooDoo Blooze
Chrisha: Hello, and welcome to this episode of The Fangirl Business.
Catherine: I'm Catherine.
Chrisha: And I'm Chrisha. And today we are here finally, finally―
Catherine: *chuckles* Finally!
Chrisha: ―to talk about The Winchesters Season 1 Episode 13, “Hey, That's No Way To Say Goodbye.” I said that backwards, because I'm out of practice. But we all just got to go with it here.
Catherine: We do.
Chrisha: Yeah, so …
Catherine: Unless you want to start over. *still chuckling* I'm cool with whatever.
Chrisha: *makes an on-the-fence type sound* Um, yeah, so we're doing great! We're off to a solid start!
*both crack up laughing*
Chrisha: We’re doing it live! We’re doing it live.
Catherine: Yes, we are. Hello, my friend. It's been way too long.
Chrisha: It's been a solid, solid stretch. And so we are finally here and finally ready to dig in much further to The Winchesters finale. We did a kind-of live episode where we processed it right after it was over. But we haven't done our deep dive, and life, um … just fell off the rails entirely right after it aired. So … yeah!
Catherine: Yeah, I'm kind of impressed that we managed to record as much as we did, even though it didn't get released until the fall. So my mom died the last week of January.
Chrisha: *makes sympathetic noise*
Catherine: And then we recorded all the way through to March when the finale was and then I just kind of went, “Well, I'm gonna go and retreat into a turtle shell for a while.” Um. *laughs* And it took me a while to get my stride back. So the first thing I want to say is a quick shout out to Jess, who is a part of the Discord but who's also one of my friends. I met her through a book club, and she's a fan of Supernatural and The Winchesters. And she has been co-working remotely with me, so we can both focus on her own thing. Anyway, it helped me to be able to get the work done, get over the hump, and get stuff edited so it could be released. And so working with her has really helped me to get the episodes out that everyone's been listening to since November. So: Thank you, Jess! I also want to thank you [Chrisha] for being here, because life has been wild for you. And so I really appreciate you taking the time tonight to work on this with me.
Chrisha: Yeah.
Catherine: So do you want to fill people in on your stuff a little bit?
Chrisha: Yeah, we were processing a little before we started recording because we flip flopped. I was hanging in there at the beginning of the year. I was hanging on by my fingertips, but you know, you're hanging in. And then everything sort of took a nosedive for me. I've been going through a divorce. My divorce was final last week. And I have two young kids. And so there's just a lot of change and transition for all of us that … You know, I just kind of had to throttle everything back. And so just absolutely any and all capacity I've had has gone to kids, self care, and clients.
Catherine: Yeah.
Chrisha: And that’s pretty much it.
Catherine: Which is where it should have been going.
Chrisha: Yeah.
Catherine: So well done you for focusing on the right things.
Chrisha: Ohhhh boy, I'm tired. I miss, like, people, and fun. You know?
Catherine: *laughing* Yes!
Chrisha: Because I'm doing, like, my own trauma therapy. And I'm just like, “Oh my God, can we just skip to the healing? I'm so tired!” So. *pain laughs*
Catherine: Yeah, yeah, yeah. But like, well done you.
Chrisha: *makes ugh/tired/frustrated sound*
Catherine: I’m really proud of you. It's been a really hard, long journey for you. And I'm glad that, you know, you've reached that hurdle where the divorce is finalized. So...
Chrisha: Yeah, that's been a huge relief. So hopefully, I'm trying to make my brain come back online and recognize that we can try to live a little again.
Catherine: Yeah, living is nice when it can happen. *chuckles*
Chrisha: *dryly* I've heard that's true. Uh, we'll see.
Catherine: *still chuckling* Yeah.
*both laugh*
Catherine: Oh, man, but again, it's really nice to be doing this with you again. I’ve missed doing this. And I appreciate you.
Chrisha: Yeah, I appreciate you, too. And, you know, the other thing I was thinking that was so funny, is I've been kind of listening to the episodes you've been releasing, which many have said, it's like, “Oh, I don't even remember saying that!”
*both laugh*
Chrisha: “Oh, how about that!” And back then it was like, I was kind of watching consistently. And then you were on a different schedule, because of all the family stuff you had going on.
Catherine: Yeah.
Chrisha: And this time, like, I just finished my rewatch, looking at my watch here, an hour ago? I guess it was an hour ago now. We’ve been talking a little bit.
Catherine: Yep!
Chrisha: So, I'm sort of coming in just under the wire this time. So we're, you know―
Catherine: I have 14 pages of notes!
Chrisha: Right! So I'm coming in with a couple of pages of just all caps, screaming about stuff, but really―
Catherine: *enthusiastically* Fantastic!
*both laugh*
Chrisha: ―you have done the deep dives this time. And I appreciate you for that, because …
Catherine: Well, it's kind of nice that we've been able to pass the baton back and forth.
Chrisha: *chuckles* Yeah.
Catherine: Because you were really there for me when I was going through the stuff with my mom. Like you were editing episodes, and you were just―you were working your butt off keeping things going. I really appreciate that. Because, I mean, she died in January, but I think the series started in October, and she was in the hospital the beginning of November. Like, the first week of November she went in. So like through that― through the whole thing I was basically living at the hospital.
Chrisha: Yeah.
Catherine: And Chriha was amazing, and supportive, and helped edit things, so that we did release as much as we did to keep things moving along for as long as we could. And then I think kind of like after mom died, I kind of crashed and burned a little bit. And I was like, “I can't, I can't do anything.”
Chrisha: *sympathetically* Yeah.
Catherine: There were so many episodes, and I was overwhelmed. So.
Chrisha: It's been a hell of a year here at The Fangirl Business, so.
Catherine: Oh, yeah. Yeah.
Chrisha: *pain laughs*
Catherine: But we're taking another new step forward with this recording. So hi, everybody, welcome.
Chrisha: Hi!
Catherine: We've missed you.
Chrisha: *chuckles*
Catherine: Even though we've been sort of around since we've been releasing episodes, we've missed the live interactive part of things.
Chrisha: Yeah.
Catherine: So it's nice to be doing this fresh again. So before we get into the episode itself, let's talk a little bit about the writer and director?
Chrisha: Okay.
Catherine: So the writer was Robbie Thompson.
Chrisha: *affectionately* Of course.
Catherine: *chuckles* Listen, we were talking before we started recording about how the whole thing had been planned out for that 20 episode season. Then it got cut to 13. Then they didn't know if they were gonna get picked up or not picked up. And they had some big decisions to make about how much they were gonna wrap up or not wrap up. And honestly, it's astonishing to me what Robbie pulled off with―
Chrisha: It’s amazing.
Catherine: ―half a season and no way of knowing if there was going to be more. And of course, we know it was canceled, but I think he really did everything―
Chrisha: Boooooooo!
Catherine: I know. Just … *makes stifled noise*
Chrisha: *laughs*
Catherine: Okay, holding myself back from many thoughts and much profanity. But I think he really did do everything that was humanly possible to make the ending as satisfying and wrapped up as it possibly could be, which I really appreciated. I'm really grateful to Robbie, and all of his hard work, and the hard work of the whole team: all of the writers, all of the producers, all of the set people, the costumers, the actors. They really put out an excellent show. And what he did with that finale was remarkable.
Chrisha: Truly, because it wrapped up so many things with The Winchesters, but then it also moved Supernatural forward and expanded that lore.
Catherine: Yes.
Chrisha: Only a few writers on this earth, I think, could manage such a thing in this universe specifically.
Catherine: Yeah, and he took a big risk, because he ended up, I think, revealing a lot of what I think was supposed to be a multi-season arc in that finale. And that was a big risk, not knowing if they were gonna get greenlit or not. So as a writer, you want to keep the mystery going. And he made the decision to reveal stuff rather than keep us hanging.
Chrisha: Yeah. *emphatically* Thank God.
Catherine: As a fan, I just appreciate that so much. So much.
Chrisha: *fervently* Uh huh.
Catherine: So it was a risk for him, I think, as the producer and showrunner to make that decision. But it really paid off for the viewers, and it's so refreshing for a show to care about the fans and their feelings. *laughs*
Chrisha: Huh. Weird. New. Is that what that feeling is?
Catherine: Right? *laughing* And the director, to move on from Robbie just a bit, is John Showalter. And he's a veteran Supernatural guy. He directed the first episode and the last episode, and I think a few in between, but it was nice that we kind of started and ended with this team of John Showalter and Robbie Thompson, together.
Chrisha: Yup.
Catherine: So, yeah.
Chrisha: Carrying the torch.
Catherine: *sighs* Yeah, really, just―thank you, Robbie. *relieved chuckle*
Chrisha: Yup.
Catherine: I want to write them all letters and be like, “Thank you!!!!”
*both laugh*
Chrisha: Now, please find a way back.
Catherine: Yeah! Exactly. Exactly! Now that the writers strike―oh my gosh, we had a writer strike. We had an actor strike. We had the network crumbling―
Chrisha: The CW― *laughs*
Catherine: The network imploded.
Chrisha: They canceled everything.
Catherine: *agreeing* They canceled everything. And then the writers went on strike. The networks were saying horrible things, like they were just going to wait for people to lose their homes. And literally, the evil billionaires were talking like evil billionaires.
Chrisha: Like, twirling their mustaches as, like―really―it’s like some cartoon villain s***.
Catherine: Just wild. Wild, wild, wild. Then the actors joined the strike. The unions stood strong, and they got really great deals. I think it's gonna change the game going forward for decades to come. Because they fought hard. And they got what they wanted. And it's kind of remarkable. Both the Screen Actors Guild and the Writers Guild of America got what they wanted. So yeah, it's been a whole journey that's happened.
Chrisha: Like 1000 lifetimes since The Winchesters ended. Truly. And―
Catherine: Yeah.
Chrisha: ―it's been wild. I mean, truly, with everything happening, and all of the things with the networks, and they're still just canceling so many things. Everything except for The Boys, that Jensen's on. Like, Big Sky got canceled. I just, it's been such a weird year of …. Every choice that is made … I think fans everywhere were just like, “What?”
Catherine: *laughs* Yeah.
Chrisha: “What are you doing?!?!”
Catherine: Yup!
Chrisha: So as of now, I'm not seeing that part change yet.
Catherine: No.
Chrisha: The guilds have gotten what they were looking for, mostly. I think AI is still a little sketchy. But, you know, for the most part, things are looking good there. But the networks just seem to be making choices that do not align with fandom very well.
Catherine: No.
Chrisha: So it's a strange time to be a fan, I think, of TV.
Catherine: It is. And I think it makes me more grateful that such care was taken with this finale. With this show.
Chrisha: Yeah.
Catherine: I'm pissed that it was canceled. I'm sad that it was canceled. It should not have been canceled. It was great television. But they gave us the best that they could with what they had and made amazing decisions along the way. And it was very healing. It really was. I think we're gonna be doing a “looking back at the season as a whole” few episodes. So I don't want to go too far down that road. But I'm really grateful for this series.
Chrisha: Yeah.
Catherine: And it's been a wonderful ride. And I appreciate everyone who was involved in it.
Chrisha: Yeah.
Catherine: Except the CW executives. *laughs*
Chrisha: Right! Yeah, no, they can suck an egg.
Catherine: Yep!
Chrisha: Honestly, that was one of the defining things that I think made so many of us realize that the networks are so far out of step with fandom? Is that―
Catherine: Yes.
Chrisha: ―when Jensen was shopping The Winchesters after it was canceled at the CW, he actually came to social media and was like, “Okay, show them all who we are.” And we did―as we do―
Catherine: Yup.
Chrisha: ―and it still didn't get picked up. And I think that's when we were just like, “Wow, y'all are a mess.” Like―
Catherine: *emphatically* Yup! *pain laughs*
Chrisha: ―if you can't see how much money we have spent on this franchise, and would continue to spend on it? How much engagement there is? Like, you're just gonna say, “Nah”? Like, you all are so out of touch, it's just incredible. So.
Catherine: Yeah, no wonder everything that they're doing keeps failing because they keep―they don't value … I mean, and that's why I think the strikes were so important: was that they had stopped valuing their creatives.
Chrisha: Yeah.
Catherine: And their creatives are the soul of what they do. Like, they can't do it without them, but they thought that they could, especially with the AI stuff, right? The unions were literally fighting for the soul of the industry. And I'm so glad that they stood up and fought. I mean, they've really sacrificed.
Chrisha: They did.
Catherine: People were having to get help for groceries. And I want to say, too, one of the most amazing things that I saw as part of the strike was that fandom stood up and really worked to try to take care of people.
Chrisha: Yup.
Catherine: So there were organized efforts through various fandoms to have food delivered to people on the picket line. There were fandom efforts to support money for housing, and groceries, and childcare, and all of these kinds of things. And so fandom―not just Supernatural, but like Star Trek and Wynonna Earp, and all of these different fandoms―stood up and were like, “We want to take care of the people who have given us so much over the years.” And it was really quite lovely to see everyday people stepping into the gap where these mustache twirling billionaires were literally saying, “We're gonna wait them out till they lose their homes.” So *laughing in disbelief at how wild it all was* it really was like a good versus evil kind of fight.
Chrisha: It really was. And the fact that the billionaires ever thought that they were gonna win, when literally what we're all doing here is stories about good versus evil.
Catherine: Yep!
Chrisha: Silly gooses! Silly gooses.
Catherine: Yup! So it's gonna be interesting to see how things do change now that those hard fought victories have―have come about. But in the meantime, we're gonna look at what we already got. So let's talk about the Scooby Gang, the Monster Club: John and Mary and Carlos and Lata and Ada and Millie and Samuel … Not so much Samuel.
Chrisha: *makes a “yeah, no” sort of noise*
Catherine: I don't want to include him that much. But Ada and Millie? Yeah, they can be part of the Scooby Gang.
Chrisha: Yeah.
Catherine: The Monster Club. So usually we start with Mary, do you have any opening thoughts about Mary in this episode?
Chrisha: Well, it's hard to extricate, I think, John and Mary, because their stories―
Catherine: Yes.
Chrisha: ―again, were intertwined. And I feel like both of them grew a lot in this episode.
Catherine: Yes.
Chrisha: Owning their stuff, but also leaving space for discussion about things and just being really authentic with each other in a way that I think they always had been. But it just felt like it went up a level, you know?
Catherine: Yes, I totally agree. I think the only thing that I was a little disappointed about in terms of Mary was that she decided not to go to KSU. And that broke my heart a little bit. But she makes a lot of other really good decisions during the episode. So I was just a little sad about it as a nerd who loves higher education.
Chrisha: *laughs* Well, see, I didn't necessarily take it as she wasn't going to go? Just that she wasn't going to commit to any future thing yet, ‘cause she just wasn't sure.
Catherine: The way that I read it was the opening confrontation between her and Samuel―’cause of course he's confrontational―is that she walks in the door. And he's like, “Have you told John yet?” What I read into that was that she had decided to reject KSU’s offer.
Samuel: Mary? What the hell is this?
Mary: It's good to see you too, Dad.
Samuel: So you're not going to KSU? Does that mean…?
Mary: No, I'm still leaving hunting. I just don't know if college is what's next for me.
Samuel: Well, before college came into the picture, you said you might leave town when you finish hunting? Does that mean―?
Mary: No. It means what I just said: I don't know what's next for me.
Samuel: What does John think about this?
Mary: *doesn’t answer*
Samuel: You haven't told him yet?
Mary: You're not the only one who has been busy finding ways to take out the Akrida.
Catherine: But maybe I misunderstood that.
Chrisha: I mean, I have thoughts on that interaction.
Catherine: Yeah, please! Share. *in a “spill the tea” kind of tone*
Chrisha: Just because it’s Samuel, Mary tends to play everything close to the vest. Because she was raised and hunting and she was given no space to be authentic or vulnerable. And so how much is she sharing with Samuel, especially when he's coming at her with things? You know, that whole scene, it I think, highlighted, I guess, how different her and John's communication had become. Because I think John used to kind of hammer at her like that. And then she would just say whatever to get him to *laughs* shut up and go away.
Catherine: *chuckles*
Chrisha: You know, meeting challenge with challenge. And so, on the one hand, I get him saying, “Have you told John yet?” On the other hand, I'm just like, she can make decisions for herself. She doesn't have to, I don’t know, get permission from her boyfriend.
Catherine: *gasps* Ohhhhh. Yeah, I hadn't even―ohhhh, yucky!
*both laugh*
Catherine: *in a reprimanding tone* Samuel! Oh, gosh, I can't stand him.
Chrisha: I got the sense the whole episode that Mary had been really trying to nail down a future; really trying to say, “This is what I'm going to do.” Even when she wasn't sure, she was trying to make herself be sure because she just needed something. And I feel like her evolution in this episode was to finally be like, “You know what, I'm not sure. I'm gonna give myself space to try on some different things.” And college, for as much as I, too, am an academic nerd, that is like the more traditional route.
Catherine: It is.
Chrisha: Is like you get through high school, and then you go to college. So, I could see that falling into, “This is what I'm supposed to do. This is what people my age do,” whether it's for her or not. So, her recognizing, “Okay, maybe I don't need to just do what normal people do immediately just because they do that.” ‘Cause how many people does that go terribly for?
Catherine: Yes, I'm a strong advocate for routes outside of college for people. I think that there has been so much pressure for people to go to college. People feel pressure when that's not what, necessarily, they should be doing with their lives. And there are lots of other options for people that are just as viable and just as lucrative. So as much as I was disappointed, ‘cause I liked picturing her being a little academic nerd like me―
Chrisha: I know.
Catherine: ―I get her decision. I was sad, but I got it. And the way that you just framed it, in terms of her leaving things more open, helps. So, it was interesting to me that such a big part of this episode was about paralleling Mary with Joan, the Akrida queen, as a way of using Joan as a foil for Mary and her decisions. Joan’s decisions were all driven by rage and grief. And at the beginning, I think a lot of what Mary was thinking and what was driving her was driven by her grief over the loss of her cousin. But she's done so much healing on this journey that she was able to eventually make a decision that was right for her, without it being a reactive decision the way that Joan’s was. We've talked about―I made a little sticker, too―this being the therapeutic model of Supernatural. And Joan, as a foil, was driven by her trauma, she was driven by her rage, she was driven by her grief―all of the negative impulses and reactionary impulses―for making a decision about leaving hunting. And then that gets really twisted. And we can talk about that more when we talk about the Akrida and everything we learned. But Mary's reasons for leaving hunting, because of the healing that she's done over the arc of the season, mean that she's making a thoughtful decision. One that isn't driven by being reactionary. She's thought it through, she's looked at her options, she has options, she created options for herself by going, “Let's see if I can get into college. Let's see if I'd be accepted.” And she has resolved a lot of the grief that came from losing her cousin, from the trauma of learning about hunting when she was just a little, little girl and being left with that knife in that bed. She's created community. She's healthy, she's healing. She's doing well. And so she's able to make a decision that is a good decision for her. She's thought it through. I'm not saying this very well. But do you know what I mean?
Chrisha: Yeah, because it's not a reactionary choice. She's not running from hunting anymore. And I think that how, to me, that was really driven home is that she was saying to John that he can still hunt. So she can still be around it. She's just not going to do it. I couldn't do that. I would be scared to death he was gonna get killed by something all the time. And she has more trauma than I do. That takes real strength, to be able to be proximate to it, but not in it. And part of me wonders how that will go.
Catherine: *chuckles* Yes. ‘Cause she does save his ass a lot.
Chrisha: Like, I laughed so hard when he was going toe to toe with Joan, and I was like, “Okay.”
*both laugh*
Chrisha: “Okay.” But it seemed like she didn't have to run away from it. She could still be around it, sort of like Lata and hunting in terms of violence. She wasn't going to be violent herself―although she was for a hot minute in this episode.
Catherine: She knows when it's necessary and when it's unnecessary, and so she knows where her boundaries are. Which I think takes a lot of courage. Anyway, keep going. Sorry.
Chrisha: Yeah, no, and she can be supportive, right? Like she can be involved to the extent that she is comfortable and then she will put boundaries around it. So it seemed similar to that. And we've talked all season about how much healthier Lata is than Mary, for example, in a lot of ways. So I felt like she grew a lot in that. But even as she has this marinating and on the back burner, trying to sort through it, trying to think about it … I mean, she was gonna leave. I think she really, up till the end, was trying to puzzle it through. But when the Akrida were still there, she hopped right in Baby and drove straight through―no hesitation at all. Which was so badass, by the way.
Catherine: I literally have that in all caps.
Chrisha: So badass.
Catherine: It'll end up being bleeped out, but, “Drives f***ing Baby like a badass.” *laughs*
Chrisha: Uh-huh, uh-huh, uh-huh.
*excerpt of Mary driving Baby, shifting gears while the engine roars; the tires splashing through water and background fighting is heard, as well as instrumental music from The Doors’ “L.A. Woman”*
Catherine: Yep. Yep, yep, yep, yep.
Chrisha: So when the world needed saved, she had no hesitation. And then when it was done, she was done. That was, I think, the whole evolution of her ark for the whole season.
Catherine: Yeah. One of the things that she says when she comes out of the portal―jumping ahead a little bit, because I want to go back to her driving Baby―was that:
Mary: I saw everything: every possible version of myself.
Chrisha: *exclaims* Oof!
Catherine: And then John says:
John: Any of them look appealing?
Mary: I’m gonna make my own.
Catherine: With this cocky smile. *laughs* She's going to basically create her own story, which comes back to authority and authorship. And it was amazing. But I wanted to just go and sit with that for a moment. She saw every possible version of herself when she was in that in-between, portal space. So she knows how bad things go for her, in general. I think every version of Mary that we've seen has a tragic ending. In the Apocalypse World, she dies early on in the apocalypse, and she never has her kids. So whether or not she has Sam and Dean, and whether or not she ends up with John, she still dies. She's just destined to die in all of these other places. So the idea that she sees all of this and she comes out of it assured that she's going to make her own choices? It seemed to affirm her decisions for her. What were your thoughts about that moment? ‘Cause it kind of blew my mind a little bit.
Chrisha: Yeah, I mean, we talked about Mary being wise kind-of beyond her years. And then after an experience like that? Oof! And not only was she processing that―which I just cannot, like, how do you even begin to process such an experience? But she was also reading Dean's journal. And we know that because of the music bit at the end.
Catherine: Driver picks music; shotgun shuts their cakehole. Yes! *chuckles*
Chrisha: So good.
Catherine: It was so good!
Mary: *scoldingly* Uh-uh-uh. I was reading some of Hetfield's journal, and he was very specific on this issue. Driver picks the music; shotgun shuts their cakehole.
Chrisha: Yeah. So she's been really spending some reflective time and taking in the things that Dean wrote for her: thinking through what she wants, and what she doesn't want. And I got the sense that her leaving, even that was her running. And then I think something must have happened, some switch must have flipped, where she kind of recognized that she didn't actually have to do that. It didn't have to be traditional college or running. She could choose her own destiny and write her own story, like Dean said.
Catherine: Mmhmm. *in a squee tone* Yup!
Chrisha: *emotionally* It was lovely.
Catherine: *just as emotional* It really was. Can we―can we talk about that whole mo[ment]― So first of all, I just need to say how amazing it was that the guys are off doing the grunt work, and the women are solving the problems.
*both laugh*
Chrisha: Yeah. That was fun.
Catherine: They fix everything. It's all of the female characters together. There are way more women in this show than men when we take in Millie and Ada.
Chrisha: *happily* Ah, bless.
Catherine: And it was just very nice to see them all gathered together, fixing things, solving things, figuring things out.
Chrisha: Even Baby was there, and Dean was not, so it was all the girls, and Baby―
Catherine: *in an excited squeak* It was all the girls!!!
Chrisha: Like―
Catherine: *giggles* And Baby is a she! You know? So, like, yes! Yes!
Chrisha: Yeah! Yeah! So it was all of them together out there saving the world.
Catherine: Oh, so lovely. And you know what I figured out? I was looking up her car, finally. The car that she drives in the show, typically, when she's not driving Baby, is a baby blue 1968 Plymouth Road Runner, which is a lower priced and basic trim version of the Plymouth GTX, which was a muscle car. And the Road Runner was considered a muscle car as well. So she was used to driving muscle cars.
Chrisha: *chuckles* Of course she was.
Catherine: *laughs* So when she gets in Baby, she knows how to drive this thing. She knows how to drive a muscle car. So fabulous: the music; her revving the engine and just being like, “Okay, I'm going for it.” It was such a Mary moment when she had everyone get out of the car.
Chrisha: Yeah.
Catherine: So one of the things that I love about Mary is that Millie could be a very intimidating woman. *chuckles* And Mary is never intimidated by her. They're both such strong women. But she doesn't see her as an antagonist. She doesn't see her as, like, an obstacle. She doesn't see her in a confrontational kind of way. She keeps drawing Millie in: like when John needed a babysitter, when he was all like, “I'm gonna die.” And so she's been drawing Millie in, and she's been listening to Millie and responding to Millie and trying things Millie's way. And in this moment, she asks Millie to keep an eye on John. She says:
Mary: *as car engine rumbles in the background* Keep an eye on him, will you?
Catherine: And it's just this moment of this connection between these two women: a mother and the girlfriend, who really love this guy. It was this moment of connection and bonding, which I thought was just really refreshing. Because it's so rarely depicted that way when there is a mother in the picture and then there's the new girlfriend, right? So I just really appreciate the way that they did that. And then her decision to have everybody else get out of the car was just so Mary. She wasn't going to risk anybody else if she didn't have to.
Lata: *as engine rumbles in the background* Are we sure this is going to work?
Mary: No. Everybody get out now.
Catherine: So she faces the Akrida queen by herself, just with a car. Which, that could have gotten sideways so fast.
Chrisha: Yeah, I agree with everything that you just said. One of the points that I just really loved is that: the way that they made the plan … So they were trying to bring Dean back via the … thing. The box. What’s it called?
Catherine: Yup. The, um … the hole thing.
*both laugh*
Chrisha: It starts with an “O.” It’s not “occultum.” Yep. The thing. The thing with the stuff, with the book and the stuff thing. Um.
Catherine: *laughing in the background*
Chrisha: And they all played such a role in that. Because Lata was the one that could open it, and Ada gave her soul for all of this and―
Catherine: And Millie figured out their reverso trick, to reverse the polarity so that it would suck something out―
Chrisha: Which is a Doctor Who reference, by the way.
Catherine: ―instead of … pardon?
Chrisha: That's a Doctor Who reference, by the way―
Catherine: *excited* Is it?
Chrisha: ―which also made me giggle. Yes.
Catherine: *makes an excited sound*
Chrisha: The Doctor’s always reversing the polarity of things. So.
*both laugh*
Catherine: I love that. They know that we're multi-fandom people.
Chrisha: Yes. We’re nerds here. They only missed a beat on, “Oh, Dean's not here.” Well, “The mystery man's not here.” Then it's like, “Oh, well, this [meaning Baby] isn't of this earth!” And then they have this agreement of, “Yeah, that's a great weapon!”
*sounds of magic at work, replete with chiming and whooshing*
*sounds suddenly stop, with The Who’s “Baba O’Riley” intro fading in*
Mary: What―what’s going on? Why is nothing happening?
Millie: It did.
Lata: The journal pulled out something that was connected to, but our mystery man isn't here … which means he must be―
Millie: ―dead. What now?
Mary: We go for a drive. This car?
Lata: *suddenly understanding* It’s not of this earth.
Millie: Detroit steel makes a hell of a weapon.
Ada: Car takes out the queen, the rest of the Akrida are dead.
Mary: Let's go run this son-of-a-bitch to the ground.
Chrisha: And I was like, “Ah, see! I would not have gotten that.” But the way that their brains and skills all worked together, it was just a thing of beauty. Watching them go through that whole multi-step process to taking down the queen. So yeah, it was just refreshing to see all of the women together, including Baby being without Dean―how often does that happen? But she's there with the ladies. The ladies doing the thing. And then them all just being so in sync together. Yeah, I just―chef's kiss. No notes. Perfect.
Catherine: Absolutely. I also love that it was Mary at the end who proposed that she and John go together.
Chrisha: Yeah.
Mary: Maybe there's something out there for the both of us. And we can figure it out together during the day. And you can hunt at night.
Catherine: I thought it was important that it was Mary who made that decision. I think we touched upon it earlier a little bit, but I wanted to emphasize that point. John didn't push her.
Chrisha: Right.
Catherine: John was going to let her go. And that's huge growth for him.
Chrisha: It is, yeah.
Catherine: Mmhmm. He was like, “I will let you go find yourself.” And it's not, “I will let you go,” ‘cause he's not being ownership-y or gross. He's just like, “You go. Go do the things that you need to do, and I accept this, and I'm not going to be passive aggressive about it or weird about it. I'm just … I'm okay with you going.” *chuckles* Remember a few episodes with the Jack guy. It was like, “And that's love.” It’s―John is thinking [that]. So for him to go from kind of thinking that that possessive―literally this guy did not let his wife go. He kept her in this weird comatose state for decades and never thought about what was in her best interest. It was only about what was in his best interest. And John thought that was love. To John going, “I'm okay with Mary leaving, because it's what's best for her and I love her.”
Chrisha: Yeah! And then he started thinking about what was best for him. He started really focusing on him; what he wanted for his life. And I just … The way that they showed that the best way to work on a relationship is to handle your own sh**.
Catherine: Mmmm.
Chrisha: Like.
Catherine: *enthusiastically* Mmhmm!
Chrisha: Can the characters of Supernatural watch this program, because― *breaks off laughing*
*both laugh*
Chrisha: Can the hot mess of people in this Supernatural universe sit down and get this message, please?
Catherine: Yes! *murmurs* Therapeutic model of Supernatural. *laughs*
Chrisha: Truly! The fact that we watched this in a Supernatural setting just was blowing my mind. I'm like, “John Winchester is talking about handling his anger.”
John: Look, I’ve found where I belong.
Mary: Being a Hunter?
John: But I can't be the best version of that until I face the anger inside of me. I don't know if it's through meditation, or therapy, or something. But I'm gonna figure out a way to make sure it's in the driver's seat.
Chrisha: He's gonna find what he needs, because he's acknowledged his anger. And―
Catherine: *sighs* Yes.
Chrisha: ―naturally, I then get emotional thinking about the children they're probably going to have and how differently those children will be raised―
Catherine: Right. *squeaks* Right???
Chrisha: ―when their parents have handled their stuff and have a healthy marriage and are healthy people, parenting.
Catherine: *exhales sharply*
*both laugh*
Catherine: I'm sorry, I'm just having a moment here.
Chrisha: *emphatically* It's a lot! It's a lot.
Catherine: *laughing* Ohhhhh. I― Oh, man. I'm literally tearing up, Chrisha! Thinking about, like, little baby Dean, and *sniffs* ugh, little baby Sam in a stable, loving home? Like― *breaks off into tearful laughter*
Chrisha: Yeah. What?
Catherine: And can you imagine how much more kickass they would be with that kind of upbringing? With two parents who know about hunting, if they decided to follow that path? Having the kind of emotional support that these parents could offer? I just … *exhales*
Chrisha: Yeah, yeah. I'm not sure that people with a healthy, stable upbringing would end up in Hunting? I feel like most hunters we’ve met are―
Catherine: *belly laughs*
Chrisha: ―have got some real stuff going on that they haven't handled?
Catherine: Regardless: them being happy.
Chrisha: Yeah! Well, seeing how each of us has a choice to do things differently. And how that can impact our relationships. No matter what is―romantic relationships, friendships, children relationships, parent relationships, all of them, you know? All of our relationships are positively impacted, at least the healthy ones, by managing our stuff.
Catherine: That's right. And literally, we started off this series talking about generational trauma. And at the end of this series, it's being set up that there will be generational healing, instead, which is beautiful.
Chrisha: Truly.
Catherine: Beautiful. I think just one more Mary thing, before I move further into my John notes: She talks about she's going to make her own story after seeing all the possible versions of herself. And we have the passing over of the journal, which we'll talk about more in a separate episode. But at the end of the episode, Mary is the one who's driving the car. And she is the one who picks the music. *chuckles* John begins to suggest some music. He's thinking Hendrix, and she picks Zeppelin. You know, we've been talking about this metaphor of the driver picking the music that Dean introduces in the very first episode in his monologue, and how that was tied into the idea of authorship and authority: picking the music, picking the soundtrack, picking the themes that are going to surround your story, right? So she's in charge. She's picking the music. She is the authority. She's driving her own car. She's creating her own story. So I just really loved that end moment for Mary, when she started off the series as a character who is trapped in a situation that was not out of her own choosing. She did not choose to become a hunter. Her parents forced her into the life. Her dad is missing. She doesn't know where he's gone or what's going on. And she is left kind of holding the bag and trying to hold everything together without him, because her mom's also gone off somewhere doing something. So she's in a situation where she's really between a rock and a hard place at the beginning of the series. She really doesn't have a lot of choices. And at the end of the series, she's making all of the choices.
Chrisha: Yeah. She really comes into her power. I mean, we've seen her as powerful all season, but physically and intellectually powerful. But now she's really coming into emotional power. And controlling her life and her destiny, those greater types of power. And what a lovely journey it was to see.
Catherine: It really was. And with a partner who is willing to give her that space and that freedom to make her own decisions. Apartner who has grown and changed with her and become a better man along the way and is still working at becoming a better man. But he's not the guy that he was, even a few episodes ago.
Chrisha: Right. Yeah.
Catherine: So he's really grown and changed to a point where she can be in a relationship with him and still have that freedom and authority within her own life, which I think is just a really beautiful thing to state and to show people. I think it's a really necessary message for, you know, everyone.
*both laugh*
Chrisha: Yeah.
Catherine: That you can be in a relationship with somebody and, if it's a healthy relationship, you can still grow and have your own authority and your own decision making power. And you don't have to let being in a relationship with somebody else control you. And the beauty and the freedom that is within that. They really do love each other. They really do care for each other. It's just very lovely.
Chrisha: It is. Mmmhmm.
Catherine: So to move on to John, unless you have any other thoughts about Mary?
Chrisha: No. Mm-mm.
Catherine: Okay. We know that the now-infamous scene, where he opens the closet to find a music box and he pushes those two coats apart? We know that one of them now was his uniform jacket. The crossed rifles are used for the Marines, which I did not know. I learned that during my research The thing that I thought was hilarious about that scene is that he's wearing that jacket in the opening scene when Bobby says he's bringing in the cavalry. And we talked about how it was a symbol for the cavalry, that crossed saber and sword, which we thought it was at the time, was the symbol for bringing in the cavalry. And then we freaked out when Bobby said it. But also he's wearing that uniform jacket when Bobby says it. So that was just kind of a fun little moment that I enjoyed.
Chrisha: So is it not actually a Cavalry thing? It's a Marine thing? Like, those are separate things?
Catherine: It’s a Marine thing.
Chrisha: Okay.
Catherine: It's a Marine thing. So I thought it was a rifle and a saber that were crossed, and that would be Cavalry. But it's two rifles that are crossed.
Chrisha: Ohhh, I see.
Catherine: It was blurry. It was hard to see in the closet.
Chrisha: *dryly* As it is.
Catherine: But listen, it went into a whole direction that worked for us.
Chrisha: *chuckles*
Catherine: So I'm not sorry that I misunderstood what it was showing. *giggles* And I thought it was such a powerful thing that we got to actually see that opening moment that we only heard described before.
Chrisha: Yeeeees, I was so excited!
Catherine: Yeah, it was very cool. And just focusing on the John part of it―’cause, I mean, the Dean part we can screech about later―
Chrisha: Mmhmmm. And we will!
Catherine: There are lots of reasons to screech over the Dean part! *laughs* But from the John perspective of it all, he starts off that episode totally lost and not knowing where he belongs or where he's gonna go. He's just sitting in this bus station, totally aimless. And he wasn't even gonna go home!
Bus station agent: Leaving home or headed home?
John: *in a subdued voice* I, um … I came here to―to bury a friend. *pause* Yeah, I don’t … I don't really know where I belong anymore.
Bus station agent: *gently* Give the schedule a look-see, and take all the time you need, okay?
John: *gratefully* Yeah. Thank you.
Catherine: That says so much about his relationship with Millie. He knew it was not going to be a “welcome home, son” moment with her. Then you look at them in the end scene of this episode, where they're so warm and relaxed together, in the shop together and she's saying,
Millie: Send us a postcard.
Chrisha: Yeah.
Catherine: And she's just totally on board with them together doing their thing. It's just―it's such a change. But it's Dean giving him that letter that gives him a direction and a purpose again, and sets him on this path. And we knew that, but I don't think we knew just how lost he was.
Chrisha: Right. Yeah. Being there for his friend's funeral. I mean, that's …
Catherine: *breathes* Yeah.
Chrisha: He was in a rough place, emotionally.
Catherine: That's right. And Dean sets him on this path with that little nudge. *laughs affectionately* Do you think it's worth me reading the letter again?
Chrisha: Sure.
Catherine: Okay. So: “John, as I write this, you're asleep in your room; your mom down in the garage. I pray you never see this letter. But if you're reading it, it means I'm gone now. I'm sorry I kept the truth from you. There's a whole other world out there: a dangerous world. Winchesters have fought that danger for centuries. Had to the address below. This key will let you in. The answers to all your questions are inside. Remember, John, as long as there's a Winchester alive, there's hope. Listen to your mother. And know that I love you both. Always, Henry.” It brought me back to that scene when we first meet Henry in Supernatural, where he goes up, and he's going to a meeting to get initiated into the Men of Letters. He says goodnight to his son and turns on the music box and then leaves and never sees him again. So it made me wonder all over again, “What happened to this Henry?” I don't think we quite ever got an answer to that.
Chrisha: We did.
Catherine: Did we?
Chrisha: Yeah. Joan said that she killed him. She came back and killed all the Men of Letters.
Catherine: *gasps* That's right! *whispers* We did. I forgot!
Joan: After your dad's boys club beat me, I used all my remaining power. Every ounce of it.
John: What did you do?
Joan: I wiped out the Men of Letters, John. Including your father.
Catherine: See, this is what happens when you took your notes two weeks ago.
Chrisha: *chuckles*
Catherine: *whispers* Shoot. *full voice* So we do know!
Chrisha: Yeah.
Catherine: He was killed.
Chrisha: I mean, it's interesting that the series started with this letter from John's dad, which is what gets him there. And then it's sort of bookended with finding out what truly happened. The loss of John's dad and how that has impacted him and his anger―getting that closure mid season, started to allow him to heal. We've talked about it with Millie. But I think it also did with John, because he didn't rise to that bait from Joan the way he probably would have―
Catherine: That's right.
Chrisha: ―in the past. I don't think he was surprised, necessarily. But he certainly didn't go into reactive anger―
Catherine: No.
Chrisha: ―which is what she was looking for, I think.
Catherine: That's right, because she knew that if he got reactive, he'd get sloppy.
Chrisha: Right.
Catherine: He was able to channel his feelings into something that was disciplined and continue to fight her. We'll talk more about the history and the timeline later. There's so much to talk about, Chrisha.
Chrisha: I know.
Catherine: What are your thoughts about John?
Chrisha: We've talked about his anger, and the evolution of his anger. And so with Mary, we were kind of watching her take control of her life and figure herself out over the course of this season. And with John, it was taking ownership of his anger issues. It was lovely to watch both of those things evolve.
Catherine: Yes.
Chrisha: John being so angry at everything―I mean, understandably. He had just gotten back from war, he had lost his dad. So I don't think anyone was saying he didn't have things to be angry about. But seeing him acknowledge that throughout the course of the season and stop rejecting help. Because it wasn't that he was angry. It's that he refused to own it. And he refused to try to process it and heal and do things differently. He was constantly reactive and doing things that he didn't feel good about―
Catherine: Yes.
Chrisha: ―but would not just acknowledge that and make a different choice. You know, that's what was enraging. And so seeing him start to acknowledge what happened with his dad, start to heal from that after getting that closure, and then starting to try things on. Is it meditation? Is it beating the hell out of a punching bag? Is it therapy? Trying all these different things. And he and Mary have a conversation at one point where he's just saying:
John: Look, you have to stay behind.
Mary: What? *emphatically* No!
John: We all know you’re the best hunter that we have, just like we all know that whoever goes out there and faces Joan …
Mary: … is probably not coming back.
John: We’ll go out there. Okay? We’ll buy you guys some time. And when you find the mystery man, someone's gonna have to lead them into battle, and that someone has to be you. I know what you're thinking: that I'm running towards danger, but I'm not. Look, for the first time, *soft, shaky breath* I'm running towards hope. Hm?
Chrisha: And he's like, “I need you to understand why this one's different.” And he came at it from a logic perspective, from a balanced and grounded perspective, versus that white knight reactionary kind of thing of looking for a fight. And so it's not that the choices that were made were radically different, necessarily. It's that what was driving the decision was different.
Catherine: *emphatically* Yes.
Chrisha: He was going into it with hope, not with a death wish. And it just changes everything.
Catherine: It does. There were a few things about that conversation that really stood out to me. The first is that he acknowledges that Mary's the better hunter.
Chrisha: Yeah! *cackles*
Catherine: Which, listen, we all knew, but like *laughs* he's very blunt about it. And there's no ego involved.
Chrisha: Right.
Catherine: Which is pretty cool. He is willing to take the more minor role in the overall scheme of things to ensure that she can be the one to bring it home. I think when John Winchester arrived, he was pretty messed up, but I think he also had a pretty big ego.
Chrisha: Yeah.
Catherine: This was just letting all of that go, like you said, and looking at it logically: acknowledging things that maybe it wouldn't have been so comfortable for a person who had fought in a war and knew his stuff to acknowledge. But he does. The other thing that he does is there's this really pivotal line where he says, “I know what you're thinking: that I'm running towards danger. But I'm not. For the first time I'm running towards hope.” *gasps* That just … ohhh, Robbie Thompson. *laughs*
Chrisha: Yep. And I understand we're going to get to this later, but I just need to acknowledge that he was wearing a red flannel while he was saying that, which is what Dean wore.
Catherine: *wheezing exclamation cackle* HA! I did not notice that. WHAT?
Chrisha: So.
Catherine: What. WHHHAT? *unhinged laughter* *muffled* Oh my goodness. [Editor’s note: Catherine is currently eating her own hands]
Chrisha: It was red. It’s not subtle.
Catherine: *slow exhale* I did not … okay. *sing-song* Okay. Okay.
Chrisha: No. I know it's for red string later, but I just―I can't get through that scene, because it just add such―*begins laughing* such context.
Catherine: *slightly incoherently* Oh my goodness. Okay. Okay.
Chrisha: Mmhmm. Mmhmm. “Running towards hope.” *deep breath and exhale*
Catherine: *agreeing* “Running towards hope.” Yeah. So it's this pivot for him, of … You really succinctly said it: the decisions may not be really different, but the process that's driving the decisions has radically changed. And so yeah, he's still running towards something that is dangerous, but he's doing it not because he doesn't care about his own life anymore, but because he's hopeful. He's hopeful that they can save the world. He’s hopeful that Mary will be able to save the day. And he's not the guy―like you said, he's not the white knight. He's taking the back-burner role that may look dramatic but isn't the actual thing. It's just … it's so delicious. I just. *exhales blissfully* [The] writing in this. *laughs* In that scene where they're actually fighting, I think it's hilarious that John, Carlos, and Samuel all came in wielding swords.
Chrisha: Mmhmm. *giggles*
Catherine: *laughing* And were like, “Today is gonna be sword day.” And then that's not the actual main action of what's really important that's happening. The sword fight is the distraction, not the main thing.
Chrisha: Right.
Catherine: I kinda love that. But also the fact that then the Akrida Queen gives all of her people swords. *bursts out laughing*
Chrisha: *dryly* Yeah, that was a very random choice, I felt like.
Catherine: *continues to giggle* It was just―it's meant to be dramatic, right? But I mean, if she had been smart, she would have just given all of her people guns, and they would have shot them.
Chrisha: I'm like, “It's the 1970s. Guns exist, unless this is different over here, but I'm pretty sure they used guns before, so… okay.
Catherine: But it was very epic, even though it was *loses it laughing* Random Sword Day.
Chrisha: Yeah, I mean, I know our boys were trying to gain them time, but she wasn't. *laughing* Like, the Queen wasn't!
Catherine: No!
Chrisha: I don't know why she played along. I don't know.
Catherine: I don't know why she did either. Maybe it was just because her ego was so massive.
Chrisha: Sure.
Catherine: Whereas John has put his to one side. But that was hilarious. Also, he had a great line where he says:
John: You came here for a fight. So if you don't mind, we could just skip the whole monologuing.
Chrisha: *as Catherine giggles in the background* Yeah. That sounded like Dean.
Catherine: It sure did!
Chrisha: That was a very Dean thing to say. *laughs*
Catherine: It sure did. I loved it. This is, again, speaking to the healing journey that he's been on. Joan, as you said earlier, is trying to get under his skin. And one of the things that she's saying is that regular humans are the actual monsters. Then she turns to John, and she says:
Joan: You don't need my sales pitch, though, do you, honey? You're already a monster, John.
Catherine: And if that had happened earlier in the season, that would have gutted him.
Chrisha: Right.
Catherine: It would have laid him out, because he did feel monstrous on the inside. But because of the healing work that he's done, I think it still landed, but it didn't unseat him completely from what he needed to do. Because he knows that the people around him do not see him as a monster. And they've seen him in some pretty dark moments, where he was covered in blood with somebody who had basically set him up for murder. And he was taken over by a ghost spirit-y guy who―
Chrisha: *chuckles*
Catherine: ―and when he killed Neto. They’ve seen him in some pretty dark places, and they do not think he is a monster. So because of his community that you became a part of, he's able to move through that moment, instead of being undone by it, which I thought was pretty cool.
Chrisha: Yeah. I think that what healing can do isn't that you don't get your feelings hurt.
Catherine: Right.
Chrisha: It's not that you don't get triggered. It's that you can also stay tethered to the present and recognize, “Okay, yeah, that one stung. However, I'm here to do a thing. And she's trying to do this other thing.” It allows you to continue to access the logic versus being completely in the emotion, in the trauma space, the trigger space. It hurt, and he had to, I'm sure, suck in a breath. But he was also aware of the present, and he stayed engaged there.
Catherine: Mmhmm. I just want to read what he says, before we move on to Lata, verbatim. We've alluded to it a couple of times. He says that, “I can't be the best version of that until I face the anger inside of me. I don't know if it's through meditation, or therapy, or something. But I'm going to figure out a way to make sure it's not in the driver's seat.” I thought that was a very interesting way of wording it. *chuckles*
Chrisha: Yeah.
Catherine: Because he wants to be in the driver's seat. He's not going to let his anger be in the driver's seat. Driver picks the music; driver is in charge. So it was a very lovely way of tying that all together. Again, Robbie Thompson! Oh my gosh! Like. *makes strangled sound, then giggles**
Chrisha: Yeah, yeah. Well, and I loved the placement of the bus station for the opening scene, too, because a bus station is literally all roads. You can pick any road, which again, is just so symbolic here.
Catherine: *in a revelatory tone* Ohhhhhh. Oh my goodness. Yes, it is. Chrisha, look at you delving into the metaphors.
Chrisha: *chuckles*
Catherine: That's beautiful! I had not gotten there at ALL. Wow. My brain is just fully exploding right now.
Chrisha: *chuckles again*
Catherine: But yes, and so he could have chosen so many different paths. And Dean sets him on the path that is most likely to lead to his healing.
Chrisha: Yeah. The path home.
Catherine: *agreeing* The path home, the path towards community, the path towards healing. Mmmf. I've also got to say, he was wearing a brown leather jacket at one stage―
Chrisha: *exhales heavily*
Catherine: ―that was so much like Dean's in Season One Supernatural, which was his dad's jacket. And I just had, like, a whole moment about it. So.
Chrisha: Are you talking about that end scene? Like, when she was leaving?
Catherine: Yes! Yes.
Chrisha: The one where she was wearing a very tan … coat?
Catherine: *gasps*
Chrisha: That one?
Catherine: Listen.
Chrisha: *cackles*
Catherine: Listen. No―oh my… We're gonna have so much fun in the red string episode.
Chrisha: Listen, something happened in that scene where I literally just screamed at my computer a little bit ago. So. *chortles*
Catherine: I knew that you would see stuff that I wouldn't see. I knew it. I said it before we started recording and you were like, “Oh, well,” I was like, “No no.” *laughs*
Chrisha: So much screaming.
Catherine: Okay. *laughs*
Chrisha: *sighs happily*
Catherine: Shall we move on to Lata?
Chrisha: Oh, let's.
Catherine: Little details here. When she's guessing the missing ingredient for the crystal, when she's talking to Ada. And she's like:
Lata: *excitedly* Eye of the dragon! Unicorn’s horn? Devil's tongue!
Catherine: Both of these are actually foods that are used in China and parts of Asia. But eye of the dragon, devil’s tongue: We're getting more hints that Jack was going to show up, which I thought was really interesting.
Chrisha: That is interesting!
Catherine: Right? And the fact that they tied him so much in the previous episode to the devil's child through that poster in Limbo’s tent.
Chrisha: Yeah.
Catherine: And the fact that there was the adder’s fork that was mentioned by one of the witches. And also the title of one of the songs that was playing in the background of the speakeasy―and I didn't make this connection at the time when we were recording―but it was called, “The Viper.” And Jack has been very connected to snakes.
Chrisha: Yeah.
Catherine: So.
Chrisha: And then there was the guy that was named Jack that played God. I remember we talked about that one, too.
Catherine: Right, exactly. But I just think it's very interesting that Jack keeps getting tied to Lucifer in these hints about everything.
Chrisha: Yeah! Bad things.
Catherine: The bad things, exactly! *laughs*
Chrisha: *also laughing* Right!
Catherine: The first time he's connected with a snake, it's when he has lost his soul, and he burns the snake alive. Like turns into dust. It's so disturbing!
Chrisha: Thinky thoughts. Thinky thoughts.
Catherine: Yeah, yeah, so thinky thoughts! And that question of the snake in The Garden: “Who are you really? Who are you?”
Chrisha: Yeah!
Catherine: That's what I keep asking myself.
Chrisha: “Literally, who are you?” *laughs*
Catherine: Yes!!! Anyway, I just thought it was interesting that Lata was bringing up some stuff that alludes to the devil again. So, devil's tongue is an ingredient. Eye of the dragon. The devil is sometimes called The Dragon in, I think, Revelations [Editor’s Note: Revelation Chapter 12].
Chrisha: Totally missed that. Hmm. Hm-hm-hm.
Catherine: So, I love her. As soon as she knows that Ada is going to potentially lose her soul, she immediately starts to research a way to grow back Ada’s soul. To grow back her soul!
Chrisha: And it wasn't that she just immediately started researching. It's that she did not go with the others to work on end of the world stuff. She was like:
Lata: I'm going to stay back and dig into the lore. If we decide to use that spell, then there has to be a way to grow back and restore your soul. We've got you, Ada.
Chrisha: And―
Catherine: Yes!
Chrisha: ―I might have burst into ugly tears at that. ‘Cause what … *emotionally* like, what a thing, you know?
Catherine: *exhales in fangirl* That moment where she says that, where she says, “I've got you, Ada,” is such a powerful moment. It's those ride or die people, right? We keep talking about that, with found family, and the people who are there for you no matter what. And it was one of those moments, I agree. It was very emotional. But the idea that you could grow― like remember, in Supernatural, how there was the whole thing, like, “Once the soul is gone, it can never come back.” And that ended up being a lie. But it was a whole thing. They didn't even look or try to restore a soul, once Jack lost his soul, or Donatello lost his soul, or any of the other people lost their souls. It was just gone. And she's not going to take it back. She's going to grow it.
Chrisha: She grew a new one!
Catherine: She grew a new soul!
Chrisha: It came out of a plant! Just like demons can be stored in plants. Oh my God.
Catherine: *laughing in amazement* Yeah!
Chrisha: Just. Just, oh my God, I love it. Love it!
Catherine: Ahh! It was so amazing. She's just so remarkable. Oh, I love her so much. She stabs the Queen in the f***ing heart.
Chrisha: Yeah.
*audio of Lata letting out a sharp scream as she stabs the Queen in the heart*
Catherine: Some Dean-level sh** right there.
Chrisha: She did. She put the pacifist stuff on hold when the fate of the world was in the balance. I can't decide how I feel about that. Like, I want to feel good about it. On the other hand, I'm like, ehhh, hold up. Like, that boundary was so important to her. *sighs*
Catherine: I know. I―I get what you're saying. It's not an easy thing to navigate. But when she committed she committed 100%. *laughs*
Chrisha: I mean, she did not hesitate. Didn't get her far, but…
Catherine: Nope. She tried. She really tried.
Chrisha: Actually, it did! It did get her fa―oh my gosh. Oh my gosh. Okay, hold on.
Catherine: Wait, what?
Chrisha: The sword thing is because Lata actually got her with a silver something and noticed that it hit her and that it actually cut her. And that's why they showed up with swords, because she noticed that. She said, “It's not going to kill her, but it'll piss her off.”
Joan: Look who's been holding back this whole time. You broke your pacifist streak, Lata. Look what hunting’s done to you.
Lata: I know how to hurt the queen.
Catherine: Ohhhhh!
Chrisha: I'm there now. I’m, like *laughs*
Catherine: I missed that entirely!
Chrisha: Yeah. It's a quick, in the rapid-fire back and forth. But yeah, I remember that now.
Catherine: So it wasn't just Random Sword Day.
Chrisha: It wasn’t Random Sword Day, no. Now, that said, it was Random Sword Day for the Akrida. Why did they show up with anything but machine guns? I simply do not know. But *laughing* there was a reason that our boys showed up with swords.
Catherine: *laughing* Okay, that makes sense. I think the Akrida queen liked the drama.
Chrisha: *agreeing* Oh, yeah. Yeah.
Catherine: Mm. I think it was important that she fought back against the Akrida queen, because she got taken over by an Akrida. So she was fighting for her own self. I think it was important for us to see that, before she got taken over by the Kyla Akrida. But she was fighting so hard when she was under the control―
Chrisha: Right.
Catherine: ―of Kyle Akrida that her hands were shaking. And we've literally never seen that before. Nobody has fought that hard.
Joan: How's it going in there?
Akrida Lata: So much knowledge.
Joan: Yeah?
Akrida Lata: So much anger. She's putting up a fight.
Catherine: So it just spoke again to me about how strong Lata is even though she is a pacifist. Pacifism does not mean that you are weak.
Chrisha: Right. Yeah.
Catherine: It means that you are strong in a different way. We've literally never seen that before. And Kyle-Kyle, not Akrida Kyle, literally was not able to save his own life from this Akrida-Kyle-guy, right? But she was able to make his hand shake. Which is incredible!
Chrisha: That does―thinking about it in terms of the Akrida taking people over, and she had the tattoo. I love *laughs* I need, just for a second, that it showed how easy it is to get past something like that. You just burn it off.
Joan: Say goodnight, Lata.
Lata: *gasps and screams as a sizzling sound begins*
Chrisha: Which in Supernatural, I've always been like, “Why don't they just burn it off?” Like, they're demons. It's not like it would be― *cackles*
Catherine: They did! Crowley did. He did that to Linda Tran.
Chrisha: Yeah, and I'm like―
Catherine: “Why don't they always do that?!”
Chrisha: Sam and Dan are just frolicking through the demons. No issues. It’s fine. *laughs* So, I love the little pokes. I love the little pokes.They just―they spark joy. They really do.
Catherine: *giggling* Yes, they do.
Chrisha: But yeah, I mean, so they had the tattoos for a reason. And I'm sure that they could fend off a regular Akrida. But she knew she was going toe-to-toe with the queen. So that does make more sense that she was fighting not just for the world, but for her own autonomy. And perhaps that's something she really would throw down over, even now.
Catherine: Yeah, I think that's a fair point. Yeah. My first watch through, I didn't realize that the Akrida that took over her is the one that took over Kyle and the one that took over the cop that interrogated John. And so, I was kind of extra glad that―do we get to know what happens to him? Does he get killed? I think he gets killed.
Chrisha: I don't think so. I don't think we know.
Catherine: *overlapping* I don’t think he does.
Chrisha: I don't think any of the Akrida die. I think they get banished or whatever. And then all the people are just people again.
Catherine: That's right. Okay. Akrida Kyle, who's in Lata, tells John:
Akrida Lata: You've seen this movie before, John.
Catherine: Which I did not get the first time that we talked about this. So those are Taylor Swift lyrics.
Chrisha: *amused* Yes.
Catherine: And you were freaking out about it, and I did not get it.
Chrisha: *begins to chuckle in the background*
Catherine: I think I was just kind of nodding along in my zombie-like state. So when I got it this time I was like, “Wait, what? Wait! Wait.” There's a reference, there's a nod, to Taylor Swift song, which everyone goes nuts over. They featured a Taylor Swift song, “Shake It Off,” in Supernatural.
Chrisha: Dean loves her. Mmhmm.
Catherine: *agreeing* Dean loves her. That's right. And the lyrics are from the song, “Exile.”
*excerpt from Taylor Swift’s “Exile” plays*
I think I’ve seen this film before / And I didn’t like the ending.
Catherine: And the title of the episode is “That's No Way To Say Goodbye.”
Chrisha: *starts laughing and continues as Catherine goes on*
Catherine: Like, the shade that is being thrown at the Supernatural finale.
Chrisha: John wearing that damn shirt! Like, well, yep, mmhmm.
Catherine: Just wild! Just wild. That's not even getting into the fact that a huge portion of the Supernatural fandom are Swifties. There have been [fan]fiction Big Bangs―which are a big write-off…
Chrisha: Oh, yeah.
Catherine: …with deadlines and pair-ups with authors and artists. And it's a big deal in the fanfic world―that have been based on Taylor Swift songs. *chuckles* It’s a big part of the fandom,Taylor Swift. Even without the tie in to Supernatural canon, it's just another one of those moments where it's like, “Oh, they see us. They know us.” I'm not personally a Swifty, but a lot of people are, and … Respect. So I just thought it was very cool that they included that moment.
Chrisha: Yeah, that they echoed it again. There were a few things I noticed in this episode. They didn't say things once. It was something like this, where they were echoing it again, or they were doing something with so much intention to make sure that you noticed.
Catherine: *giggling* Like, we really want you to know.
Chrisha: That I'm like, “Okay, message received.” Do I know for sure that they're quoting Taylor Swift? I mean, no, but the album that it's from is the one that came out during the pandemic that I think just resonated with a lot of folks. It's a very, very popular one. So even if it's not tied to lyrics, “I've seen this film before,” the whole point of a quote like that, I think, is to think about how it ended before.
Catherine: Yeah! *giggles*
Chrisha: So like, take Taylor out of it. You know.
Catherine: Yep! Seen it before. Ending sucked. “That's No Way To Say Goodbye.” Like, *drums fingers on table* it's just very cathartic to know that there were people involved who felt as strongly as we did that that finale was terrible. *chuckling*
Chrisha: Mmmhmmmmmm.
Chrisha: It's very cathartic. *sighs*
Chrisha: Yes.
Catherine: Okay.
Chrisha: We're not gonna go there yet, but Dean's saying that he went to heaven and then drove around looking for a version of his family that had a happy ending? I was like, “He was not pleased, I don't think, about the way his story ended.” *cackles*
Catherine: Wow, Chrisha! I had not―WOW. Wow. I love your brain so much. I just love your brain. It's so wonderful. *exclaims* Ahhh! Okay. *laughs*
Chrisha: Anyhoo: back on track, back on track.
Catherine: Back on track.
Chrisha: Reining it in!
Catherine: So another moment that I really love for Lata in this episode is that Akrida Kyle, while he's in Lata, says that she's full of knowledge and he's learning from her. But she's also learning from the Akrida while she's fighting back. While she's fighting with everything in her being, she is also learning from them, because she is a scholar, and she wants to know, and she wants to learn. And so while she is fighting for her very existence so hard that she's making his hands shake, she learns that:
Lata: The Queen has all her strength back. She'll have the portal completely opened by tonight.
Catherine: So she learns crucial information about how all of this is gonna go down. So we talked before about her multitasking. *laughs in amazement*
Chrisha: Yeah! And the fact that she wounded the Akrida Queen when she was physically fighting her, and the fact that she was able to catalog that knowledge while she was in a literal fistfight with an all-powerful being? And then she gets taken over and she's still cataloging things and doesn't lose any of it in the shocky trauma of it all.
Catherine: Yeah.
Chrisha: That's incredibly impressive.
Catherine: It really is. And we've learned from Roxy just how traumatic that whole experience is.
Chrisha: *emphatically* Yeah! I would not be retaining knowledge, I would just be like― *laughs* No, she's amazing.
Catherine: She's so amazing. So it just, again, demonstrated all of the things that we love about Lata, taking it up to the next level, which was wonderful. And then again, like you said, she finds a plant that heals Ada. They have this really beautiful exchange at the end where Lata’s like:
Lata: It'll take time, but…
Ada: *emotional and elated* You did it.
Lata: We did it. *chuckles*
Ada: Thank you.
Chrisha: Yeah.
Catherine: And that's what Lata has been all about through this whole thing. She has been about community. I really feel like she has been the glue for the whole Monster Club/Scooby Gang thing. Because Carlos wanted to be the solo act and not be part of the band, right? And Mary's used to doing her own thing. And John is brand new. And Lata was the one from the beginning who was like, “I'm just gonna bring these people around and care about them.” And then Carlos learned how to be part of the band. So as the season went on, he worked with her more with that bonding community part of things. But she from the beginning has been this person who's like, “We, not me,” you know?
Chrisha: Mmhmm. Absolutely. I feel like her evolution, or so much of it, was feeling like she was weak and limited because she wasn't violent. And we learned that she had to not be violent because of the trauma that she had experienced. That was her only way of dealing with it, was trying to have boundaries around that and not succumbing to this anger that she saw in her dad. She saw where that went. It caused massive trauma for her. She's not going to do it. But then she felt like she wasn't a proper part of the team. She wasn't important. She wasn't enough. And I think we really watched her come into her power and her confidence and recognize they'd have been dead twelve-and-a-half episodes ago, if not for her knowledge. You know, everybody has their own skill set. And hers is absolutely crucial. So―
Catherine: It is.
Chrisha: ―I loved watching her do that. And watching her just come into her own and then have that culminate not only the moment of defeating the Akrida queen with all the women together, but also that moment with Ada―because to her those are equally as important.
Catherine: Yes, absolutely. I really loved the moment at the end where she finds a new case.
Chrisha: *chuckles* Yeah. At the beach.
Catherine: By the beach with Carlos, and he's like:
Carlos: Werewolves don't surf.
Lata: *primly, with sass* Only one way to find out.
*both laugh*
Catherine: I just love the idea of the two of them continuing to live their bickering, supportive, loving relationship with each other, and bringing in Anton and Tony and Ada and Millie, and having their own adventures. We've said before we would watch the Lata and Carlos show. *chuckles*
Chrisha: Oh my gosh. So much. Every week. Let's go.
Catherine: Yes. So I love that at the end, she is the one who's finding new cases. And again, it speaks to that new level of confidence in herself and her role within the group. So it was just a lovely way to kind of say goodbye to her character―for now. I'm always hopeful that maybe someday we'll see her again.
Chrisha: *sighs* Yeah.
Catherine: Um, anything else about Lataa that you wanted to talk about?
Chrisha: No, I don't think so.
Catherine: Okay, let's move on to Carlos.
Chrisha: Yeah.
Catherine: It opens the episode with Dean first, which was fantastic.
Carlos: *with noticeable thirst* Well, whoever this guy is, he is ruggedly handsome.
*Catherine giggles in the background*
Chrisha: I mean, Carlos truly is us.
Catherine: He really is.
Chrisha: Mmhmm. It's funny. Where have we heard the term before?
Catherine: No! Is that a―is that a Cas thing? Give me context.
Chrisha: Dean, when he was trying to get Cas to flirt with a waitress, he was like:
Dean: Hey, Mandy? Question for you. My shy, but devastatingly handsome friend here was, uh, was just wondering, when do you get off?
Catherine: *gasps* What?! Noooo.
Chrisha: They repeated it. That's one of those ones where Carlos was like, “Oh, he is ruggedly handsome.” Obviously, it being a sexual attraction kind of a deal. And then Lata’s like―
Catherine: *gasps and squeaks* Whaaaaat?
Chrisha: ―yes, “ruggedly handsome.” Just, like, teasing him about it.
Lata: *reprovingly, yet with a bit of humor* He’s not of his earth, is all that matters, Carlos.
Carlos: So any weapon not of this earth can take out the Akrida.
Lata: *impatiently* Yes. Which means “ruggedly handsome” over here can take out the Queen.
Chrisha: And I was like, “Y'all.”
*both cackle with laughter*
Catherine: *losing it* Wha―
Chrisha: Y’all.
Catherine: No!
Chrisha: Yeah.
Catherine: No. *laughs* We were like, “Maybe we should do a Destiel episode," and we cannot keep the Destiel contained to the Destiel episode.
Chrisha: There's too much!
Catherine: *laughing* There's too much!
Chrisha: *unhinged tone* There’s too much!
Catherine: *softly screams* Ahhhhhhhhhhhh!
Chrisha: Like, they open with “ruggedly handsome,” and I'm just like, “I quit.” Like.
*Catherine continues to die laughing in the background*
Chrisha: It's such an iconic scene that people come back to.
Catherine: *singsong* Robbie Thompson, I love you!
*both cackle*
Catherine: How do we follow that up? I mean― *laughs*
Chrisha: I'm not really sure. Like, honestly, I've been thinking about Carlos in this episode. And he didn't have as big of a role, I feel like, in this one as he typically does. And a lot of what he did do was be *loses it laughing* flustered by how hot Dean is.
*Catherine howls with laughter and does not stop*
Chrisha: Which, I mean, if they’re gonna have somebody represent that, like, that is absolutely the best choice. But. *wheeze laughs*
Catherine: I mean, okay. And if we're gonna talk about the work that that's doing―
Chrisha: *cackles*
Catherine: ―on a serious note. *recovers from laughter and tries to recenter herself* I mean, I think it's important that Dean is being seen in this way by a not-straight man. I think it's important that they're showing that on screen that yes, men can be attracted to Dean. *half mutters* Like Cas was attracted to Dean. And I think it's important that they showed that explicitly. That was not subtext. That was right out in the open.
Chrisha: No. No. And that's, oh gosh, that's why it was so funny to me. We have only seen Carlos get flustered with Anton. Most of the time he's very flirty. Here, he was just like, “He said my name! Heeheeheehee!”
Catherine: *cackles like a freaking bog witch*
Chrisha: Oh, it was so good!
Catherine: He literally makes an astonished noise, and then does a little laugh, because Dean knows his name.
Chrisha: Yeah.
Carlos: S-so, what were you looking for?
Dean: That's a good question, Carlos.
Carlos: *laugh-gasps*
Chrisha: It was just perfect.
Catherine: *laughs* And his eyes get big!
Chrisha: And he looks around, like, “Oh, did anybody see me react to that?” Like, *mimicking an embarrassed sound* “Ohhh! Um.” *laughs*
Catherine: It was so cute!
*both laugh*
Chrisha: Oh gosh, it was so funny. And Dean doesn't react to it, ‘cause Dean's kind of busy processing talking to his parents. So he's got a little bit going on. But it was really, deeply enjoyable.
Catherine: It really was. “The hot mystery man knows who I am.” *laughs*
Chrisha: Mmhmm. Mmhmm. Exactly so. The fact that Carlos didn't have a big, big flashy bit in this episode I think speaks to your point for before, which is that his arc was learning how to be part of a family, part of a unit.
Catherine: Yessss.
Chrisha: He didn't have to stand out. He really could be a support person. And he was. He was part of the process, and he went with a sword to die just to buy them some time.
Catherine: Yes he did.
Chrisha: Without hesitation. There was no discussion around it. And he was part of a family. And that's what he wanted, and that's what he had to learn to allow himself.
Catherine: Yes.
Chrisha: So the culmination of his story being that he was less flashy and more in the background made sense to me―even though I always want him in the front, ‘cause he's just so great.
Catherine: I do, too. But speaking to that, watching him fight with his sword was delightful.
Chrisha: Mmm. Mmhmm.
*Carlos yells and there is the sound of clashing swords*
Catherine: He was so elegant and just so smooth with his― I mean, he fights well. We've talked about that before with the holy hair water―
Chrisha: Yeah.
Catherine: *giggles* Holy―hai― … wait. Holy hair, holy water … commercial …
Chrisha: Holy water hair commercial. Yes. *chuckles*
Catherine: Holy water hair commercial! Thank you! I can't word anymore. Oh, man. So he did have his moments to shine. He was pretty amazing in those fight scenes. He did two other things that I think were really important in this episode. He urges Ada not to jump the gun on powering up the crystal, which I think was really important.
Chrisha: Yeah.
Catherine: So, she was willing to just like, right then―
Chrisha: Yup, let's just go for it. And he's like, “Baby, no. Hold on.”
Catherine: *giggles*
Ada: All I have to do is say one word in Latin and it’s powered up. *takes a breath*
Carlos: *rushing* Oh―okay, querida. Let's not use that word until we absolutely have to.
Catherine: And he calls her, “querida,” which means “dear.” It means somebody that you love, which I thought was really soft. He and Ada seem to have a really special connection where they're just very soft with each other. He's very nurturing and kind towards her when she's hard on herself about Tony.
Chrisha: Yeah.
Catherine: And it was just another one of those soft moments between them, which I really appreciated. So first of all, he tells her not to jump the gun. So she's able to be more present for longer, emotionally, and she's not doing the thing until it's absolutely absolutely necessary. So I think that was really important. The other thing is that he's the guy who brings up the idea of rewinding a tape, metaphysically speaking.
Chrisha: Right. Yeah!
Catherine: And here's the name of it: the Ostium! I wrote it down.
Chrisha: Ostium! I knew it was no―
Catherine: The Ostium! The Hole.
Chrisha: *laughs*
Catherine: Anyway. *giggles*
Chrisha: *sighs affectionately* Okay.
Chrisha: So Carlos brought Dean in through The Hole, then. Is that―
Catherine: Yeah, he sure did!
Chrisha: ―where we’re at? Okay.
Catherine: *losing it laughing*
Chrisha: It's fine.
Ada: The Queen is about to sing her swan song. We can't rewind this tape here.
Carlos: Wait. What if we could rewind the tape? Metaphysically speaking, if you know what I mean.
John: On behalf of everyone, I think I can assure you when I say that we do not know what you mean.
Carlos: Okay, look, look, just bear with me one second. Now, when we use the Ostium, it pushed the Akrida out of this world. Right?
Ada: Right. We used the rock from the Akrida’s world to send them back to where they belong.
Carlos: Okay, so the rock acted as directions for the Ostium: you know, a one-way ticket out of here. So, what if there's a one-way ticket back here? I mean, the mystery man we're looking for is clearly not from this earth, which means neither―
Mary: ―is this.
Ada: A journal is personal. It's clearly connected. Okay, but how do we reverse the polarity of the Ostium?
Mary: Find my dad's lore on the Ostium and bring it to Millie's.
Catherine: And I thought it was really cool that it was a music analogy, going back to like, “Driver picks the music.” He is the musical guy. And so it's that out-of-the-box thinking. He's not the researcher, he's not Lata, he's not the mechanic, Millie, who has been trying to fix all of the mechanical things with the box and figured out how to juice it up. He's the musician. But because he's the musician, he's out of the box thinking. He's able to help them to think about the problem in a new way.
Chrisha: Yeah.
Catherine: Which is really important and is why interdisciplinary stuff is super important in the real world.
Chrisha: Yup.
Catherine: So he is the one that comes up with the idea of reversing the polarity of the Ostium. And so instead of using a rock from the Akrida’s home planet to push the Akrida home, they use the journal to pull something back from there. And he's also the one with Millie who learns that:
Carlos: According to the law we dug through, you can only reverse the polarity at midnight.
Catherine: But:
Carlos: Whatever you feed it creates a portal connected to that object. So we fed it the rock and it was able to shoot the Akrida back to their world.
Millie: So if we feed it the journal, and trace the sigils in reverse, the Ostium can bring here whatever was tied to the journal.
Catherine: Whatever the hell that means.
Chrisha: *chuckles*
Catherine: It made sense within the logic of the episode.
Chrisha: Yup. Hand wave.
Catherine: So he had some really crucial moments in the episode. Even though he was playing a quieter, supportive role, they were still very, very important moments for him.
Chrisha: Yeah.
Catherine: His little mirrored wave at Jack was also wonderful. *giggles*
Chrisha: *laughing* Yes!
Catherine: Like, “Who is this guy and why is he waving? Okay, I guess I'll wave funny at him, too.”
Chrisha: Yeah.
Catherine: Like, you could see the thought process.
Chrisha: So funny.
Catherine: Also, when Dean leaves he breaks the silence with:
Carlos: Now what?
Chrisha: Yeah. Yeah.
Catherine: And Lata replies:
Lata: We go home.
Catherine: It kind of mirrored that moment from the Supernatural finale, where Bobby is like, “What do you want to do now?” and Dean is like, “Go for a drive.” But it's so much more wholesome and … *laughs* and lovely. So again, I just felt like it was throwing shade a little bit. So it's just very real. They've saved the world. They’ve met people from not only another universe, but another time. They've just met God. And he's like, “Well, now what?” *laughs*
Chrisha: Yeah.
Catherine: *still laughing* Like, “Eh.”
Chrisha: Bit of a come down. But yeah, I mean, even comparing it to the finale: What we now know is implied, that felt so weird about the finale is that, “going home” doesn't mean stopping. It means, like, going to find another way to help save things.
Catherine: Exactly.
Chrisha: The “one last hunt thing” at the beginning when Dean's like, “Yeah, one last hunt.” And it's like, “He is lying through his teeth, but okay.” Like we’re gonna …
Catherine: *laughs* Yup.
Chrisha: You know, which Jack also knows. There's always one more hunt. Because there is! There’s always one more hunt.
Catherine: Heck yes! And then we get to see that with the, “werewolves don’t surf.”
Chrisha: Yeah! Yeah. Yeah.
Catherine: Anything else about Carlos?
Chrisha: Uhh … just my everlasting love for him, mostly.
Catherine: I know.
Chrisha: Yeah.
Catherine: Gosh, I adore him. I really do think he was my favorite character in the whole thing. I mean, Lata is very, very cl― I think, I―I don't know if I can separate the two of them.
Chrisha: Right.
Catherine: Those two are my favorite characters.
Chrisha: I just. I love them. So much. The two of them. Yeah.
Catherine: Yeah. They really made the show.
Chrisha: Truly. Yeah.
Catherine: It would not have been what it was without them. I'm very glad that we got Carlos and Lata. Millie: I think there were only a couple of things about Millie. She is continuing to talk with John about what's going on. So she's continuing to be in the loop, which again shows the growth in their relationship. It started off and they did not talk. And now she knows everything that's really going on.
Chrisha: Yeah.
Catherine: And is deeply involved in it. And she has a great line where she's like, “Nothing―nothing like a little Detroit Steel for … for, you know, killing an Akrida.” Or something like―
Chrisha: “Makes a great weapon.” Yep.
Catherine: Yeah. And when she learns about the Akrida, and that everything's kind of coming down to the wire, she really focuses on what winning would mean for John and Mary together, which I thought was showing care and concern that was really lacking for her, again, at the beginning of the series.
John: The catch is the crystal only works once. So one chance to save the world.
Millie: Well, at least we got a shot. If this works, Mary's out of the game, isn’t she? What does that mean for the two of you?
Catherine: So she's really softened, and she's really grown into this mom role. And she really cares about both of them, which is really soft and sweet. So yeah―not that she's a soft person. Like, she hasn't changed who she is. It's just that she shows that warmth now.
Chrisha: Well, yeah. And she's not reactionary in the same way that John isn't. They're able to let their stuff go, to be able to connect. They're not constantly in this defensive position with each other.
Catherine: Yes.
Chrisha: That's a game changer: to be able to let your guard down and just be present and vulnerable with someone that you love. Now they can take care of each other versus fighting each other.
Catherine: Yes. Yes, absolutely. Touching upon Ada really quickly. She says she only has to give up a fragment of her soul, which I think is a little different from the way that Rowena phrased it. But what we learn is that when you lose a piece of your soul, the rest fades away.
Chrisha: Yeah. I thought that was interesting.
Catherine: Yeah, I thought that was really interesting, too.
Ada: It's missing one rare ingredient: a fragment of a human soul.
Carlos: *faintly* Oh.
Lata: According to lore, if you lose a piece of your soul, then―
Ada: ―the rest fades away.
Catherine: There's this really amazing shot where she looks calm as she's about to say the word, before Carlos stops her. She looks very calm, very determined. And then when we see her afterwards, and her face turns a little, she's wiping a tear away. After he stops her.
Chrisha: Mmm. Yeah.
Catherine: John Showalter, thank you. That was an amazing cinematic moment.
Chrisha: They really rallied together to take care of her in a way that made me very emotional, because I think that she is just not used to being cared for.
Catherine: Agreed. What we learned from the witch thing is she's always been on the fringes.
Chrisha: Yeah.
Catherine: She ran this independent bookshop, but we don't really get a sense that she had any connections from it. There aren't people who are looking for her when she drops everything and goes to help these kids, so I think you hit on something really important there. The word that she used to activate the crystal is:
Ada: Libero.
*sounds of magical whooshing*
Catherine: Which is the Latin word for “free,” and I screeched, because she's literally fighting for their freedom. The whole thing is free will versus destiny.
Chrisha: Right. Yeah.
Catherine: The word that she uses is “free.”
Chrisha: *thoughtfully* Huh.
Catherine: I was just like *makes error noise* They're sticking stuff in there that we’'re meant to go looking for.
*both chuckle*
Chrisha: They know us well.
Catherine: They do. I love that she got her soul back through a plant, which she helps to grow. I love that she says:
Ada: *faintly* Find the other way.
Catherine: To Lata.
Chrisha: Yeah, yeah.
Catherine: So often we've been told, “There's another way; there's another way; there's another way,” and then there ends up not being another way. And there was another way, and Lata found it.
Chrisha: She [Ada] asked for help.
Catherine: *overlapping* She did.
Chrisha: She had her support system.
Catherine: Yes. Yes.
Chrisha: She didn't try to suffer in silence and secrecy like some other boys we've met.
Catherine: *mock disbelief* What? No.
*both laugh*
Chrisha: And then there was a happy ending, ‘cause the whole thing, everybody's arcs, resolved. Everyone ended the season in a so much healthier place than where they started it.
Catherine: That’s right.
Chrisha: And they are such a cohesive unit now, and they love each other, and they care for each other, and they eat breakfast with each other while joking about werewolves surfing.
Catherine: Yup. Yup.
Chrisha: *sighs happily*
Catherine: Found family; community. She has a relationship with her son now that she didn’t before, and it's because of the community around her.
Chrisha: Oooh! I just put together: Lata’s dating her son.
Catherine: Yes!
Chrisha: So, it was like that connection, too: like Millie and Mary.
Catherine: Yaaas, yes, yes, yes!
Chrisha: Awwwww. They’re so cute!
Catherine: They are so cute! She was helping her boyfriend's mom, but also she just loves Ada. And it’s just a very authentic, real relationship. And I loved that the soul in this universe goes back in as white smoke. We have the black smoke from demons in the original Supernatural. And in this universe, the soul goes back in through the mouth, but it's white smoke. I thought that was really beautiful.
Chrisha: Yeah.
Catherine: They resolved it! I didn't know how they were going to resolve it, with Ada and losing her soul. In the last episode that we recorded, I was adamant: like, “I don't think that they can resolve this in an episode. I think they're setting up a character arc for the next season.” And I think they were, originally.
Chrisha: Probably.
Catherine: I think that's exactly what they were doing. But then they found a way to resolve it in an episode, which is remarkable. I say “they;” Robbie Thompson: thank you.
Chrisha: Yeah, and the plant tie-in, it was so lovely. Because we watched the way the both of them worked with plants all season. And it just was so perfect. It was just so perfectly them.
Catherine: It was. We're gonna have a lot more to say about the finale. This is just the beginning. Like I said, I have fourteen pages of notes, and you have your own insights. You've already blown my mind, like, three times during this episode, so. *laughs*
Chrisha: We're gonna have fun! It's like a whole finale, mult-episode thing that's not brutally depressing. This one’ll be fun!
Catherine: *overlapping* No! It will be!
Chrisha: Yay!
Catherine: What??? What is going on?
Chrisha: Catharsis.
Catherine: *giggling* All right, so we're gonna wrap it there for today. And you can message us and stay up to date with the latest on our Twitter and Blue Sky pages, which are both @TheFangirlBiz: that's B-I-Zee or B-I-Zed, depending on where you live in the world. We currently have a higher tiers of Ko-fi on pause until we catch up with perks. But you can always join us at the bottom tier of $1 a month and join our lovely Discord group. They're amazing. I love them. It's been a little bit more quiet since the finale, but we're still keeping in touch with each other, and chatting, and randomly squeeing about fandom stuff as things happen in the Supernatural and The Winchesters fandom. So we're going to be recording a few more episodes before we wrap the season. And at least one of them is going to be looking at The Winchesters as a whole. So we've got, like, a lot more we’re gonna be talking about! *laughs*
Chrisha: Yeah. We’ve got stuff.
Catherine: But it'll be fun. We'll see you again next time. And until then, carry on, Wayward Friends. We love you. Bye!
Chrisha: Bye!
Outro: “Exile” by Taylor Swift
I think I’ve seen this film before / And I didn’t like the ending / I’m not your problem anymore / So who am I offending now? / You were my crown / Now I’m in exile, seeing you out / I think I’ve seen this film before / So I’m leaving out the side door
Outtake:
Catherine: And― *bonking noise* Woah. And I hit my mic because I'm not used to this anymore.
*both laugh*
Chrisha: Who are we? Where? What is happening?
Catherine: I have no idea.
Chrisha: Who’re you?
*both laugh*