The Fangirl Business: A Supernatural Podcast

15.1: "The Winchesters" E11 - The Truth Shall Set You Free

November 29, 2023 Season 2 Episode 15
15.1: "The Winchesters" E11 - The Truth Shall Set You Free
The Fangirl Business: A Supernatural Podcast
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The Fangirl Business: A Supernatural Podcast
15.1: "The Winchesters" E11 - The Truth Shall Set You Free
Nov 29, 2023 Season 2 Episode 15

We'd love to hear from you! Reach out to us via this link to let us know what you're thinking!

In this episode, Chrisha and Catherine discuss the way that the series thus far has been a healing experience for many from Supernatural's finale, Mary's response to Betty and to John's arrest, the revelations about John while he's in police custody, Lata's journey of letting go of things that were not hers to carry, the monster of the week (Erebus), Carlos' support role whilst maintaining his delightful personality, and Millie's personal growth.

The Winchesters audio clip credits: The CW
Supenatural  audio clip credits: The CW
Music clip credits: "Don't Fear the Reaper" by Blue Öyster Cult; "Turn into Earth" by The Yardbirds

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Show Notes Transcript

We'd love to hear from you! Reach out to us via this link to let us know what you're thinking!

In this episode, Chrisha and Catherine discuss the way that the series thus far has been a healing experience for many from Supernatural's finale, Mary's response to Betty and to John's arrest, the revelations about John while he's in police custody, Lata's journey of letting go of things that were not hers to carry, the monster of the week (Erebus), Carlos' support role whilst maintaining his delightful personality, and Millie's personal growth.

The Winchesters audio clip credits: The CW
Supenatural  audio clip credits: The CW
Music clip credits: "Don't Fear the Reaper" by Blue Öyster Cult; "Turn into Earth" by The Yardbirds

Follow us on Twitter @TheFangirlBiz and on Bluesky

Join our Kofi Discord community at $1/month:

Support our podcast by buying our new merch:

Thanks for listening!

Disclaimer: Welcome to The Fangirl Business: A Supernatural Podcast. The information presented in this podcast is intended to be for entertainment and educational purposes only. It should never be used in place of advice given by a mental health or medical professional or as a substitute for mental health treatment. If you are struggling with a mental health issue, please seek treatment from a mental health professional in your area.

Intro Instrumental Rock Music: “Play the Game” by VooDoo Blooze

Chrisha: Hello, and welcome to this episode of The Fangirl Business

Catherine: I'm Catherine. 

Chrisha: And I'm Chrisha. And today we are here to talk about season one episode eleven of The Winchesters, “You've Got a Friend” and I gotta say from the title of this episode, I was not expecting to like, sob my face off. I was like, ‘Oh, I know that song. That's like a nice little happy song’. And then yeah, sobbed my whole face off.

Catherine: *already laughing* I mean, you weren't me.

Chrisha: I did! It was like the one thing I said was ‘Bring tissues’.

Catherine: They were raised by my computer as I watched. Well, before we get into the story itself, which a lot happened in one episode, my goodness. 

Chrisha: So much! 

Catherine: Yeah, yeah. Just a quick note for behind the scenes stuff. The writer was Nicole Desperito, and she has been a writer on Once Upon a Time and Scandal, so is pretty established, I would say. That is the only thing I was able to learn about her, nothing else. The director is someone named Lisa Soper, who is a fellow Canadian, which is cool. And she has done a whole bunch of shows, but had started off in production design.

Chrisha: *intrigued* Ooohhhh… Sorry, that's really interesting for this episode, specifically. Hmm! 

Catherine: Yes. And so she was involved in a lot of stuff but including the Chilling Adventures of Sabrina and Peacemaker and now she's sort of transitioned more into directing; she directed Riverdale. So that was definitely interesting. She was talking in an interview that I saw on YouTube about how she is the kind of person who pays attention to little things like, why does the person put their keys over here instead of over there, you know, what's the backstory? So details are very important to her as somebody with a background in production design.

Chrisha: Hmm hmm hmm. Well, doesn't that just fit? 

Catherine: Indeed. 

Chrisha: Along with the detail oriented stuff, I really feel like for all of the episodes recently, but this one for sure, I want to really acknowledge the folks in our Kofi Discord, because this is really a team effort at this point. It's like having a whole research team because… It's– it’s amazing. I'm going to shout out Sara specifically because she and I are very often there in the Discord watching live and just like screaming things back and forth, ‘What jacket is that?! Where's that picture from?!’. The bedspread!’. 

Catherine: Yeah, I've been able to start to enjoy that myself as well because I'm caught up to current, finally, after all of the stuff that was going on in my life. So I was able to kind of join in on the Discord and The Winchesters channel for the first time in quite a while. And yeah, Sara helped me out, too, which I'll talk about a little bit more, probably in a Red String Edition. But yes, shout out to everybody because everyone's super engaged and noticing things that I would never notice. Like my friend, Jenny, today noticed stuff about buttons, and I was like, ‘I would never have seen that, that's amazing’. So yeah, very grateful to everyone there. And even if you're not engaging, it’s okay, we love you.

Chrisha: Yeah, no, it's fun. The team effort and engagement– I mean, I crowdsource some stuff on Twitter, too, like with the Dean picture. I'm like, ‘Okay, Twitter. I know, you know where it's from’.

Catherine: Nice. 

Chrisha: *laughing* Just tell me where it's from, and they did! That's what this fandom does. We can identify a still from ten years ago–

*both talking at the same time*

Catherine: In five minutes

Chrisha: In fifteen minutes. 

*both laugh*

Chrisha: I've never seen anything like it; it's amazing!

Catherine: It really really is, like somebody will know. Somebody will know. All right, well, now that we have acknowledged the awesomeness of the fandom in general and our Discord people in particular, let's talk about Dean. 

Chrisha: *perkily* Yeah, okay! Right out of the gate, just screaming in all caps I gotta say, on this one. 

Catherine: Yeah, so the episode picks up, I think, pretty much immediately after the last one, which is unusual. So they're literally cleaning up the mess that Jack what's-his-name made? What is his name?

Chrisha: Jack. Wilcox. Hobbs. Porter. He had a lot of names… Mr. Sheffield. Mr. Sheffield made a mess. 

Catherine: He did, and they're cleaning it up. And as that is happening, Dean is talking. And he says:

Dean’s voiceover from “You've Got a Friend” plays: Being a hunter means always being on the move. No matter how hard you plan, no matter how hard you work, at a certain point, we all run out of road. It's what we do at those crossroads that defines us.

Catherine: *primly* And first of all, Mr. Winchester, I need to tell you that when you run out of road it's not a crossroads. It's usually a T-intersection. So your metaphor is lousy but I still love you.

Chrisha: Yeah, he mixed some– mixed some metaphors there. But you know, we'll go with that.

Catherine: We will. I mean like, look, he was really looking for an opportunity to use the word "crossroads" in this particular series, as a man who has made many deals at many crossroads in his life that had profound implications. 

Chrisha: So many.

Catherine: Yeah. For years. Years and years and years, mmhmm. What were your thoughts, though, about his monologue?

Chrisha: Well, we keep coming back to this pie in the sky idea that he is processing his death and trying to figure out what he wants to do. And then we get this, which is basically Dean being like, ‘Yeah, sometimes you die, and then you gotta figure out what to do next’. And I'm like, ‘Well, okay, then! Alright.’ I mean, how else do we interpret running out of road? Like, it's–

Catherine: I mean, I interpreted it a little bit more generally, as in like, you get into a really tricky situation. But I see why you went where you did, and I am following that very wholeheartedly with you.

Chrisha: I mean, the mixed metaphor thing is confusing. The idea of running out of road feels like it's like– Thinking about it as Dean, I feel like the only way he would run out of road is to be dead.

Catherine: Right. He always finds another way, right?

Chrisha: Right. 

Catherine: Literally, as well as metaphorically, he always finds another way. Yes.

Chrisha: I mean, admittedly, Baby came to Heaven with him and *bitterly* he did just keep on drivin’! But like–

Catherine: *amused* Oh God.

Chrisha: Just– Let’s just put that… put that aside. 

Catherine: I hate you! I love you but I hate you.

*both laugh, then Chrisha sighs*

Catherine: We talk about the finale [of Supernatural] so much but like, let's be fair, this show is basically all about the finale. Come on. 

Chrisha: It is! And– I– *audibly stops herself from ranting* Mmhmm! 

Catherine: It's just the irony of continuing to talk about the finale when we were like, ‘Okay, we're done now’.

Chrisha: I feel better about the fact that we're sort of *bleep*-talking the finale because the show is *bleep*-talking the finale, so that helps with healing.

Catherine: It totally is. Yes it does. Somebody actually, in all seriousness, said on Twitter that this series has really helped them to heal from Supernatural and I was like, yes, that's exactly it. I can't remember if I talked about it here or if it was somewhere else, but I think one of the things that was difficult for me, at the end of Supernatural, was the end of possibility. And I mean that both in terms of the fact that we see through everything to the very end of both of their lives. So that's a choice that directors often don't make for end of series because they know that people want the story to continue. But they took it all the way to the end, right? And also the lack of possibility in terms of they deliberately erased all of the AUs [alternate universes]. So I think both of those things were really hard because the excitement about when AUs was introduced is that every fanfic is an AU. We had so much room to play, and it was like they took that away and then they took away the people that we loved most on the show. And also everybody else died. So…

Chrisha: *grimly* But hey, it's awesome. 

Catherine: So it was like the death of possibility. And I think one of the things that's so exciting about having this series, The Winchesters, even though it is a prequel it is the return of possibility, the return of having fun and guessing and having ideas that spark off of other ideas. And it's not a set narrative, it's a thing that's in flux. And I get really excited about that. So, in all seriousness, when I saw somebody say this show has healed, I really think it has. I mean, for me at least. I'm not sure if other people feel the same way but it's been really helpful for me regarding the trauma from the finale.

Chrisha: Yeah, I think that's been sort of a consistent thing that I've seen a lot of people talking about is that now our last memories of Dean, the last memories of Supernatural are not that. That in and of itself is just incredibly, incredibly important. So.

Catherine: Absolutely. Usually we start with Mary after we talk about Dean when we talk about the rest of the characters in the series. There's a lot of stuff that I want to yell about in the red string episode with regards to Mary. But in terms of her trajectory during the episode itself, I was really impressed that immediately in the face of all of these setbacks and losses, because of the damage that Jack Wilcox did to the clubhouse, and specifically their mortuary, she's able to refocus the group and get them centered and balanced again–

*excerpt from “You've Got a Friend” plays*
Mary: On the bright side, you lost the paw, but we gained all of Wilcox’s Akrida research. So there has to be something in here that can make up for all of this.

Catherine: I was impressed with her leadership skills, again I gotta say. There's so much red string, Chrisha, I'm trying to like, avoid it.

Chrisha: It's really hard to talk about this episode without talking about red string because it was so deep. There was just so– I mean, the wardrobe choices, the dialogue choices, the– just– *galaxy brain sound*

Catherine: Yeah, everying. Everything. But I guess John was ready to self isolate and go off on his own. And Mary's immediately like, ‘I'm involved in this, too, come on’. And then they sort of come together as a group to start to figure things out. But then when John is arrested, and they can't get Betty on board, Mary's immediate response is, ‘Okay, I'm just going to break into the police station and take him’. And she has that reaction where she's like, ‘I'm gonna go it alone’. So John has that moment and then she has that moment. 

*excerpt from “You've Got a Friend” plays*
Mary: Alright, so we’ll–
John: No. Not “we”, ok? Just me. Look, we have no idea what the Akrida are planning but I don't want anyone else to get mixed up in it.
Mary: I'm already mixed up in it.
Carlos: Okay, the two of you need to get out of town and out of sight.

[later in the episode]

Millie: Maybe we should pump the brakes here for a second.
Mary: No. You heard what Betty said. John is being transferred to state prison tonight. There's no way to get him out of there. But the precinct…
Millie: Listen to you! You're talking about breaking fifteen different laws. We need to stop and think. How do we know this isn't exactly what the Akrida wants? To lure us all into their trap and then take out everyone all at once? Why don't we check in with Latika and Carlos first. If they have that bracelet, then at least you'll know you're punching the right people.
Mary: I'll stake out the precinct, look for any openings. You call Carlos and Lata and meet me there. Bracelet or not, I'm breaking down the doors tonight.

Catherine: But in the end, it ends up being a story where they need everybody in the group. And she pauses long enough– She listens to Millie, she waits for her partners in the monster club to show up and because of that, they're able to save John and save the day. So I appreciated the tension that was at play with Mary starting off being like, ‘Don't isolate!’ and then being like, ‘I should isolate and just do this all on my own’ and then being like, ‘No, we need to be a group’. And that was the right decision so I wanted to applaud her for that, too.

Chrisha: We talked about, a couple of episodes ago, John trying to walk the line between being respectful to Samuel while still being protective of Mary. And I feel like this was Mary's version of that. Like she was really trying to be respectful of Millie while also trying to be protective of John.

Catherine: Yeah, that's a really good insight. Because absolutely, she was like, ‘Well, okay, we'll try it’.

Chrisha: And she did. I mean, she talked to Betty. I mean, that's the ex and there's tension there, Betty does not like her. And I'm sure Mary does not like Betty either. And yet she was willing to trust Millie and say, ‘Okay, we'll give it a go’. I mean, they brought her into the clubhouse. That's a big deal.

Catherine: Yeah. That is a big deal. I mean, she knew where it was located but she had no idea what was inside. There's this moment where Mary says to Millie about John and Betty–

*excerpt from “You've Got a Friend” plays*
Mary: Those two, they were really, um…
Millie: Yeah, they were.

Catherine: –and you can see Mary kind of sitting with that and finding it difficult. and trying to work into acceptance of that fact. And, man, and she's– she's just– I keep saying recently like, she's so much more self possessed as a nineteen year old than I ever was, so… I really admire the way that she's shown this incredible growth over the course of this season. And it's hard not to have feelings when there's an ex involved, especially when that ex is obviously not over your current love interest, and I would agree with you– I wasn't sure how I felt about Betty last time in terms of her feelings for John. And now I'm like, oh yeah, okay, this episode– I was like, ‘Well, okay, that clears that up for me’.

Chrisha: *pretending to be Betty* ‘I’ve been following you for weeks’. Okay. Boundaries, honey.

*both laugh*

Catherine: Listen, I have a whole note about that, where I was like, ‘Wow’.

Chrisha: We've got some boundary stuff going on. Yeah. But I also thought though, which was so funny– So Mary is very self possessed, and she is very wise, and you know, she is trained to be very respectful. But number one, she walked out of a bookcase to greet Betty, like, the drama in that…

Catherine: *cracking up* I missed that! I missed that!

*excerpt from “You've Got a Friend” plays*
Betty: What the hell is all that? And what is she doing here?
Millie: She's with me.
Mary: Thanks for coming.

Chrisha: I just cackled because that's such a Dean thing to do, like, he’s not gonna be flashy. But is he gonna like, walk out of a bookcase? Yeah, I could see that. I could see a little bit of flair. And then she's like, ‘Okay, so now we're going to storm the precinct’. Like that's normal, too, which is also very Dean.

Catherine: Right. ‘We’re just gonna do this now’. 

Chrisha: And Millie's like, ‘Wait a minute’. She's like, ‘No, it's fine, we're going’.

Catherine: ‘I've got a baseball bat and some rope, we’re good’.

*both giggling*

Chrisha: Yeah, that's– that's Dean right there, wearing the jacket and everything, okay.

Catherine: Yes. The other thing that I thought was really interesting was when John has his moment with the Akrida cop, I was like, ‘Oh, this is so dramatic. And look at John go!’. And then the second time I watched it, Mary literally tells him–

*excerpt from “You've Got a Friend” plays*
Mary: And they showed their hand.
John: What do you mean?
Mary: All of this just to get to you? I mean, clearly you're a threat to the Akrida.

Catherine: And I was like, ‘Ohhh, he was just really listening to Mary’.

*excerpt from “You've Got a Friend” plays*
John: See, when I was in basic, they told us that if we ever got captured, that our only job was not to tell the enemy anything. But here you are, telling me everything.
Detective Klett: The hell is that supposed to mean?
John: It means that you played your hand. See, if you’re willing to go through all of this to find him then, well, that guy, whoever he is, is a threat to you.

Chrisha: Which is… good. But–

Catherine: But she really took him by the hand and led him there.

*both laughing*

Chrisha: Yes. And she wasn't even right, which–

Catherine: *through her laughter* No, she wasn't. But like, that's how important John is to her.

Chrisha: She was really giving him a good pep talk, and I'm not sure that she believed it as she was saying it, but she wanted him to believe and he clearly did. And it– Mmhmm. Yeah.

Catherine: It was really cute. I was like, ‘Ohhhh’ when I watched it the second time, ‘that was all Mary’, or I think ninety-five percent Mary; he had to make a few little jumps in logic but she laid out the plan for him, the mental map, ‘You go from here to here to here’.

Chrisha: Yeah, she really did. 

Catherine: She did. Oh, my goodness. Okay. Is there more we want to talk about Mary before– Like, that is not red stringy? I feel like we've sort of avoided the red string so far. 

Chrisha: Yeah, the only other thing I thought was really notable and important is that they did give space for her to grieve Kyle as a person, not just a vessel. Which, again, is that theme of not forgetting that these people are people. And so they brought that up several times and everyone kept forgetting, which is what was so funny about it because that's in Supernatural. Nobody remembered that these were people. You know, Millie like, ‘Oh, right. Yeah, sorry about that’, you know?

Catherine: Kyle. 

Chrisha: Yeah. Kyle. 

Catherine: Yeah, he was a real person. 

Chrisha: So I liked that. And I liked that she was grieving him and wasn't trying to stuff that really– I mean, he was a different love interest so she could have felt weird or uncomfortable or tried to pretend like she didn't care, but she didn't do that. So the anti-Dean in that case. She actually felt her feelings and shared them.

*excerpt from “You've Got a Friend” plays*
Millie: They just wanted to know where John was and what I knew about Kyle. I told them ‘I don't know’. And ‘Who's Kyle?’... Mary, I'm sorry. John told me that the two of you were friends.
Mary: Yeah. To be honest, I don't think it's really set in yet. But I do know one thing. He didn't deserve any of this.

Chrisha: Everything's about Dean. I'm not even gonna apologize anymore. I just– Everything– *laughs* Everything is Dean. Dean, Dean, Dean.

Catherine: Well, I mean, along those lines, this story is being told through the lens of Dean. And so everything that is being told to us we are seeing through Dean's perspective. So it makes sense that everything is about Dean, you know what I mean? At some point, I will talk about that more, but not today.

Chrisha: We'll get there.

Catherine: Okay. Let's move on to John then. I really appreciated this cinematography around John, in particular, in this episode because the very first shot that we have of him sort of mimics the shot when he was possessed by Mac in the barn [referencing episode six, “Art of Dying”]–  

*excerpt from “Art of Dying” plays*
Lata: The barn. There he is!
Mary: John? Are you– John?
John (possessed by Mac): I’m sorry. Tall, dark, and angry can't come to the phone right now. 

*comparison excerpt from “You've Got a Friend” plays*
Mary: John?... Oh, my God. What happened? Where are you hurt?
John: It’s not my blood. It’s Kyle’s.

Catherine: So he's got his back to them. His shoulders are kind of hunched a little bit. And so it's making us as an audience, I think, sort of subconsciously– Because I was like, ‘Oh, why do I feel wary?’ And I think it was that callback is triggering within us a, ‘Oh, is he dangerous?’ kind of instinct from that original thing. ‘Is he who we think he is?’ And even if it's for a split second, that's some good cinematography, because at this stage I think even though – how do I say this – even though we're, I think, more emotionally involved in the fact that John is a protagonist, for a lot of us feeling that way about him in this series, we are never allowed to forget who he becomes in Supernatural. So I think they may have been playing a bit with that, actually.

Chrisha: Yeah, it reminded me, too, the way that they shot it and the words that he said, ‘It's not my blood’, it also reminded me of the episode where Dean has the Mark [of Cain], and he kills that whole room full of people [referencing season ten, episode nine of Supernatural, “The Things We Left Behind”].

Catherine: Oh, yeah, that's the one where Claire comes back into the picture. And she is being used by some pretty awful people and he just goes in and like, massacres them.

Chrisha: Yeah, so we see this shot of– I think he's looking at the camera but covered in blood, that same kind of vacant expression.

*excerpt from “The Things We Left Behind” plays*
Sam: Dean? Dean. Hey. Tell me you had to do this.
Dean: I didn’t… I didn’t mean to.
Sam: No. Tell me it was them or you! 

Chrisha: And you're wondering like, ‘What just happened? What is happening? Is he possessed?’ So I don't know, it kind of echoed that one for me, too.

Catherine: Yeah, I think for me, it was the barn because both of those [shots] were from behind. So it was like, ugh. But we do see Dean in him. Dean and John had similar capabilities for violence. And I mean, Carlos even talks about that, how it immediately brought him back to Mars Neto [referencing episode four, “Masters of War”]–

*excerpt from “You've Got a Friend” plays*
Carlos: All that blood…
Lata: I know. I mean, of course, I believe John, it's just…
Carlos: It’s like Mars Neto all over again.

Catherine: That had been really awful for him, to witness John like that, to see somebody who was starting to become a friend just so alien in his rage and the after effects of his rage.

Chrisha: Yeah. A couple other things with John, we learned quite a bit there at the beginning. He’s sort of talking through what happened. We were talking about childhood responses? He did that again here, which is that he was traumatized and then reverted back to, ‘I was not fast enough, not strong enough, I'm sorry’. And Mary's like, ‘What are you talking about, they’re super powered bugs’.

*excerpt from “You've Got a Friend” plays*
John: I'm sorry. Okay, if– if I was– if I was faster, I– I could have– I could have stopped.
Mary: Hey. You did everything you could. What happened to Kyle was terrible, but it wasn't your fault.

Chrisha: So that does seem to be something that they are intentionally playing with, bringing back.

Catherine: It was very similar wording to his wording when he wasn't able to connect with Henry and bring him back. I noticed that, too, and I was like, ‘Oh, they're doing a thing’.

Chrisha: Yeah. And then we also– Just so that we can keep checking off *singsong* Ha, we called it, we called it, we called it!’ because there's so many of those in this episode, he hadn't been meditating for weeks, per Lata.

*excerpt from “You've Got a Friend” plays*
Carlos: Has he been meditating?
Lata: Not for weeks.

Chrisha: Which is exactly what we said was gonna happen; he would start and then he wouldn't follow through. And he would blame it on all the things happening which, you know, we didn't hear him, but I think it was pretty heavily implied. And yeah.

Catherine: Yeah. Nailed it. Sadly.

Chrisha: Yeah, they’re all saying like, ‘Listen to Lata, it's not your fault. Do your things to take care of yourself’. And he just sort of doesn't respond.

Catherine: Yeah. It's kind of like hitting a wall, I think, as they're talking to him. Which I think is partly because I think he really was having a shock reaction during that, and I have got to say Drake's acting in that whole initial– Well, through the whole episode, really, but especially those initial moments where there's shock and grief and trauma, it rang so, so authentically for me as a viewer. I was just like, living that with him as he was trying to talk about what happened and figure out what to do next. So I think part of the lack of responsiveness was probably because of the shocky place that he was in, but it is telling that he didn't respond to her. Yeah. I found a few moments really shocking. So we had a few big reveals about John. But also I think we had a reveal about the town in that Betty says that–

*excerpt from “You've Got a Friend” plays*
Betty: The way they're talking, you're lucky it's me who found you first.

Catherine: I was very, very taken aback by that. Because that's some pretty strong language about the reaction that people are having to him and what happened.

Chrisha: Yeah, I wish I could have been shocked by that. We're talking like a square state in the middle of the US, small town in the seventies. I just wasn't surprised that people would have wanted to get violent with him. That mob mentality, I think, it happens. It happened then, it still happens now. I guess the only thing that surprised me in that is that Betty seemed to really have some almost shockingly blind faith in the legal system. Which I’m like– like ‘You work within this like, surely, you know, I mean, even if there's not alien bugs, that if the outcry is that bad that he's not going to get treated fairly’. She strikes me as just being extremely naive.

Catherine: Yeah. Which is especially weird because she is a Latinx person who is working in– 

Chrisha: Woman. A Latinx woman in Kansas in the seventies, on the force, I just– You'd think she would have seen some stuff by this point. I don't know. 

Catherine: I wasn't sure how I felt about that part of the characterization, to be honest, and how that kind of fit with her earlier self.

Chrisha: I honestly expected her to help him run, I really did. I really thought that she was going to catch him and then encourage him to go because they were coming for him. And I thought that her feelings would get in the way and would take over her professional obligations. So I guess in one sense, it's kind of nice that she didn't chuck her ethics for a man. But on the other hand, yeah, it just seemed pretty naive. It's one of those things that– It worked okay in the moment, but when I sit here and think about it I'm like, ‘Hmm, seems odd to me.’

Catherine: Same. Back to John and the revelations about him, I'm just gonna list them out and then we can talk about all of them. The first is that, his record, it included stuff like vandalism, but it also included stuff like assault, which is a big deal. Assault, disorderly conduct, and vandalism is part of his rap sheet. We also find out that he was a prisoner of war in Vietnam, which he has not indicated once. And if the Akrida police cop guy wasn't exaggerating, apparently he had a psych eval that says that John has a death wish.

*excerpt from “You've Got a Friend” plays*
Detective Klett: Assault, disorderly conduct, vandalism. Eh, just a few of your greatest hits.
John: I know my record.

[later in the scene]

Detective Klett: You… yeah, you’ve got a thing about getting yourself caught, don't you? How long were you a P.O.W.?
John: Long enough to learn how to take the heat.

[later in the episode]

Detective Klett: I didn't want to believe the psyche eval in your profile was accurate, but you really do have a death wish, don’t you?

Catherine: So we learned some pretty big stuff about his past, about where he was even before the war, about what he experienced during the war. I'm sorry, some of Betty’s lines were like whaaat? The line where Mary is like– 

*excerpt from “You've Got a Friend” plays*
Mary: You have no idea how much danger John is in.
Betty: His problems started the day he met you.

Chrisha: I know. I'm like, ‘What? Betty, you know that's crap’, like…

Catherine: Yes! She does. It was just like, ‘What are you talking about, Betty? I'm sorry. That's just bull *bleep*’. What were your feelings– Because I was just– It was a lot.

Chrisha: I expected the assault, that one didn't surprise me. He's angry. He's angry a lot. This violence is clearly not new to him. They kept talking about getting things out of his system, and just how deeply impacted by anger he's been. And so there's childish type anger, where you spray paint the side of a billboard. And then there's deep anger. I feel like that's always how John was characterized, is just being really, really, really, really angry, and not having any outlets for it.

Catherine: Maybe I'm the one who's naive here. But I kept thinking, ‘Oh, he was very verbally angry’. I didn't think that he had actually gone out and assaulted people. So that did surprise me. I mean, yeah, maybe I am a little naive there. but I wasn't picturing him going out and hitting people. That means that he was really, really out of control before he joined the military. I'm not sure how that would affect his chances in the military or not. I don't know…

Chrisha: I don't know the laws in the seventies. I know now you certainly cannot have charges like that on your record and get in. But this was the Vietnam era where they were drafting Carlos, who was in trouble legally and so they gave him the option to join the military. Like they were looking for people in trouble with the law. I don't know. I'm assuming, right, so this is something that is not clearly flushed out so it's all our interpretation. But the way that I was always thinking with John was that he was involved with the wrong kind of people. So I was thinking teenagers getting into fights. It's not okay. It's not good. It's also not wildly uncommon.

Catherine: Right, but would that have been the kind of thing that was reported in the seventies?

Chrisha: Could be, sure

Catherine: Okay. Okay.

Chrisha: Yeah, I mean it depends. It depends on who he would have punched and who saw it, you know? 

Catherine: Yeah, that’s true.

Chrisha: And he's super impulsive and doesn't do the thing where it's like, ‘Meet me somewhere and we duel at dawn’, he would’ve just hauled off and then walloped somebody when they pissed him off. So…

Catherine: Yeah, that's true. I could see him just exploding in a fit of anger. For sure. So thank you for painting a picture as it were.

Chrisha: *chortles* Now the POW [prisoner of war] thing, that one definitely shook me, I was not expecting that. That is a huge layer to his war experience that we didn't know… Yeah. Okay. We're gonna get into red string later but he certainly indicated that they were trained on how to – what essentially sounded like – withstand torture. Which– Torture sort of plays a big role in Dean’s life. So… 

Catherine: I was shaken by it because he has not dropped anything remotely regarding that, being a prisoner of war during Vietnam. I know a lot of people never came home. There are a lot of missing from that. It wasn't a rules of engagement kind of situation with POWs in Vietnam. So I was– Yeah, so I– I was shocked that he… The fact that I'm struggling to find words as we're talking about this kind of shows where I'm still at with him, because for me it changes a lot of my perceptions about him. And it'll take me a while to configure that into a new picture of who John Winchester is and why he is the way that he is. I also did want to talk about the psych eval. It shouldn't have been forwarded to the police if it happened during their stay because it was a voluntary admission with Mars Neto stuff, I mean, to finish my thought. So I was wondering when that psych eval had come about, and if that perhaps had played a role in his derision of therapy. Did you have any thoughts about that?

Chrisha: I don't know the laws in the seventies. I do know that even now you can subpoena records. Usually takes a while, so… But this is television so, you know, they also seem to have people. So I feel like they could get access to whatever they wanted. 

Catherine: Of course, yeah, thank you. 

Chrisha: So in terms of the psych eval itself, typically speaking, the way that it's done now – at least in the experiences that I have had – is that the professional works with the client, does like a couple hours of sometimes it's just a standard kind of list of questions that are a guide, if you're writing a report or recommendations. Sometimes there's clinical tools that are more standardized in terms of personality inventories and things where you don't know what you're answering, or like, how it’s scored, that kind of thing. Typically speaking, at least in my experience, the professional then sits down and kind of writes up a document, a report that is shared, but I don't think a professional would have sat down with John and been like, ‘Wow, you have a death wish’. There might have been some like, ‘So it seems like we have some concerns about blah, blah, blah’. Whether it's, you know, suicidality or if it's self loathing, you know, however that was presenting for him. And this cop just sort of bottom lined it..

Catherine: Right. ‘Cause he was an Akrida trying to get under John's skin. Yeah.

Chrisha: But the idea that in some fashion, John not valuing his own life? Yeah, not surprised to see that show up on a professional evaluation, I think that would have been very difficult for him to mask enough to get it past a professional that worked with military veterans.

Catherine: Okay, that makes sense. I mean, like, we've seen it from the very first episode. So we know, it was just– I was kind of like, ‘Wow, when did he have a psych eval?’ Like, what stage was that at? And when would it have likely happened in the course of events?

Chrisha: Probably at intake, that's usually– They usually do an assessment first before they start treatment.

Catherine: Okay. Okay, that makes sense then, thank you for explaining that. I have no idea how those things work so…

Chrisha: Well I mean, it's all guessing because I do not work in an inpatient facility, nor do I work in the nineteen-seventies, so it's all broad strokes.

Catherine: Yes, you still know more than I do so thank you. There were a couple more things that I wanted to talk about with John, because a lot happened with him this episode, my goodness. I didn't have a whole bunch of parallels, or echoes, or contrasts with Supernatural that are not red string, but this was one… It was after he got punched by the cop and he smiles that bloody smile. That was pure Sam. I was like, ‘Oh my goodness’, in Caged Heat, episode ten of season six after he's created the devil's trap in his own blood, and he captures the demons. I was just like, ‘Oh my God’, like I literally got chills because it was the same expression. Totally. And it hasn't really hit me since the pilot, that he-looks-like-Sam thing. I don't know why but he's just for whatever reason than the pilot, he reminded me of Sam so much. So this one was like, ‘Whoa, there's Sam. Okay.’

Chrisha: Yeah, it also reminded me – just because it's just such a Winchester thing to do – of, I think it's… Gosh, episode… Is it the pilot? Where…? Yeah, because it's the woman in white. They're checking out John's hotel room and then the cops come and so Dean’s talking about his perky– Is that the perky nipples bit?

Catherine: *amused* That is the perky nipples bit. 

Chrisha: *laughing* And they slam him on the cop car and he has that shit eating grin.

Catherine: Yeeep, yep, yep, yep.

Chrisha: Legacy. Yeah, pissing off law enforcement and then smiling about it, a time-honored Winchester tradition. *chuckles*

Catherine: Love it. And yeah, that's true. I mean, that whole scene where he's like, ‘Hi, my name is Dean Winchester, I like long strolls on the beach.’

Chrisha: ‘I’m an Aquarius.’ 

*both laugh*

Chrisha: *fondly* I love him.

Catherine: Yeah, not the only Winchester to kind of mouth off to– Well, cop I say in quotations because, yeah, he wasn't just a cop. The other, I'm sorry, the other fantastic moment that John had– John had some great lines in this episode. 

Chrisha: He did. 

*excerpt from “You've Got a Friend” plays*
John: Oh, before we say our goodbyes, I need to tell you one more thing about the guy you’re looking for… Whoever he is, I hope he gives you hell.

Catherine: Headbutt! It was so wonderful. 

Chrisha: Good stuff. 

Catherine: I enjoyed those things. I was proud of him at the end when he talked about Kyle and he said–

*excerpt from “You've Got a Friend” plays*
John: I just keep seeing it.
Mary: Kyle… That’s not on you.
John: I know. I do. It’s hard.

Catherine: And I don't think it was easy for him to admit that and so I was really proud of him. Even though it's Mary, even though it's the girl he's in love with and trying to impress or whatever, that did not feel like an impress moment that felt like a really honest moment to me. And I was like, ‘Yes. Talk about your feelings. This is hard. Good for you. Good for you.’ Especially after all the bravado in the cell with the cop. I'm glad he had that moment in this episode.

Chrisha: Yeah, it was nice to see him authentically and just quietly grieving, but sharing it. It's what we've talked about in the past, like the big dramatics versus those quiet, important emotional moments. Like he finally kind of had one of those where it's just quiet, it's low key but it's honest, and it's real.

Catherine: Yes. Yes, absolutely. I'm so glad you framed it like that, because that's exactly what it was. And he really hasn't had those kinds of moments. He's had some quiet romantic moments, but not in terms of emotional catharsis, of talking about real stuff, and I was really proud of him in that moment. Not often proud of John but I was in that moment. So now I have to– I have to, to, to screech a bit. *audibly excited* Because there's a really important thing that's revealed in the cell with the Akrida cop. *Chrisha laughing in the background* And I like, you told me ahead of time, you're like, ‘You're really gonna like this episode.’ And I was like, ‘Something big happened!’ And you’re like, ‘I mean, something big happens every time’, and I was like, ‘No, no, no, something big happens!’ *Chrisha cackling* I don't like spoilers, so you did not spoil me and allowed me to experience the moment myself. And I screeched. I like, paused the playback, I screeched, I yelled, I got on Discord and was yelling in all caps, 'AHHHHH!!!!’

*excerpt from “You've Got a Friend” plays*
John: And your former leader, well, when she was in control of Roxy she said that nothing of this earth can harm you. So if he's a threat to you, and nothing of this earth can harm you, well... that would mean he's not of this earth. Which explains why you look like a scared little baby.

Chrisha: *triumphantly* Dean is not of this earth. He is not of this earth

Catherine: *barely containing her excitement* He is not of this earth.

Chrisha: Not of this earth! 

Catherine: He’s not of this earth! Which means he is traveling through alternate realities.

*Chrisha heaves a sigh of satisfaction while Catherine squeals*

Chrisha: Being right feels nice. 

Catherine: It does…

Chrisha: It’s nice. It's like old times. We haven't had that in a while. I remember what this used to feel like, and then we were wrong.

*pained laughter*

Catherine: Yes. It's nice to be– I have been so freakin’ tentative. *imitating herself* ‘I would like it to be this… I think that perhaps… I'm sticking my neck out here but…’ It was like, ‘Oh, my God, I was right!’ Yeeees! That was the other thought that I had. Sorry. I'm not saying this very smoothly at all because I'm too excited about it. Even if he had died and gone to Heaven, he would still be of that Earth because he would have lived on that Earth. So that's why I'm very sure that this is saying that it's an alternate universe.

Chrisha: Yeah, I know a lot of people were trying to make the case that it's like, well, he's not in his own time but he’s still of that Earth. So I tend to disagree with trying to – and I understand, I really do – that the idea of an AU– Like you and I talked about it early on, and we're like, ‘Oh, my God, I hope not, that sounds terrible.’ And so I get the complicated feelings around it. I feel like with everything that they've given us so far, I do tend to trust where they're going and hope that they're just widening the sandbox. So, I don't know, the idea of Dean as a multiverse badass hunter? I'm like, ‘My baby!’

Catherine: *giggles* Multiverse monster hunter…

Chrisha: He's not just… Like, look at him all grown up! Saving whole worlds, not just his world. Now we're doin’ apocalypses just all everywhere. Proud…

Catherine: Yes. And I mean, I have so many theories about what could be going on and why he's doing that, but I'll save that for maybe, maybe the red string stuff because I have ideas but they're based on pure speculation. So… *deeply satisfied* He’s not of that earth. 

Chrisha: He’s not. He’s sure not. And since we're here, do you want to talk about the aliases that John gave Dean ‘cause there was some fun stuff in there?

Catherine: What were your thoughts about the aliases that John yelled out about Dean–

*excerpt from “You've Got a Friend” plays*
John: So the– the guy in the photo is, um– His name is… Jeff Beck.
Detective Klett: Good. Go on.
John: Uh, well, see Jeff is, uh… it's only one of his, um, aliases. He also goes by Eric Bloom.
Detective Klett: And where do I find Mister Bloom?
John: Actually, no. You know what? No, no, no, lately he's been going by, um, Levon Helm.

Catherine: –because first of all, it was wonderful that John Winchester, the father, is yelling out band names that Dean Winchester would call himself as actual aliases.

Chrisha: Oh yeah, like, at first I'm like, ‘I don't know any of these people.’ 

Catherine: Neither did I.

Chrisha: But I will bet a billion dollars that they're musicians.

Catherine: Yes. I had to look every single one of them up.

Chrisha: Yes. Yes. I loved that parallel, that tie in to Supernatural that we're going to BS the cops which, again time honored tradition. We're gonna do it using musician aliases, again, time honored tradition. *music begins to play in the background* When I looked them up, the one that really stood out to me was Eric Bloom because he's from the Blue Oyster Cult. They sing “(Don't Fear) The Reaper”–

*excerpt from (Don’t Fear) The Reaper by Blue Oyster Cult begins to play*

All our times have come / Here but now they’re gone / Seasons don't fear the reaper / Nor do the wind, the sun or the rain / We can be like they are

Come on, baby (don’t fear the reaper) / Baby, take my hand (don’t fear the reaper) / We’ll be able to fly (don’t fear the reaper) / Baby, I’m your man

Chrisha: –which I’m like, hmm… *smirking sound* They were also the symbol– 

Catherine: Ah! *voice going falsetto with excitement* Sorry, just let me– Let me just sit with that for a second… They sing “(Don't Fear) The Reaper”. And they're talking about… Dean… CHRISHA! These absolute mother– *inaudible muttering* 

Chrisha: It was also their record symbol that was the tulpa. Tulpa. Tulpa tulpa. 

Catherine: Tulpa, tulpa, tulpa. 

Chrisha: *emphatically and rhetorically* When a whole group of people believes in something so much that it becomes true, that tulpa?

Catherine: *muffled noises* I'm eating my hand again, oh my God. 

Chrisha: *laughs* So… Yeah, don't fear the reaper and tulpa and I’m like, wow, okay. We definitely tulpa’d Dean back to life. That's exactly what just happened there.

Catherine: Okay, okay. Okay, I'll see you your Eric Bloom, and – I don't even know who Levon Helm is or The Band–

Chrisha: I couldn’t figure anything out. There's probably something there but I couldn't find it.

Catherine: Yeah, but I'll raise you Jeff Beck from The Yardbirds who sing “Turn Into Earth”, which is from episode seventeen of season seven, “The Born-Again Identity”, which is the scene where Cas comes back–

*excerpt from “The Born-Again Identity” begins to play, with “Turn Into Earth” in the background*
Demon: Hey, I know you. You’re dead.
Emmanuel/Castiel: Yes, I've heard.
(In a flashback from season seven episode one) Castiel: I’m sorry, Dean.
Meg: That's my boy.
Emmanuel/Castiel: I don't think running will save you.
Meg: That was beautiful, Clarence.
Dean: Cas?
Castiel: I remember you… I remember everything.

*Chrisha cackling*

Chrisha: Oh, these bastards… I hate them so much, oh my God. I hate them!

Catherine: I could not… To me that is one of the most powerful music scenes right up there with “O Death” when Death is first introduced, like it's– it's one of those all time hugely impactful musical moments and I have listened to that song just to relive that experience of that moment when Cas comes back and remembers everything and is a complete badass. So as soon as I saw The Yardbirds I was like *gasps* ‘No, they did not!’

Chrisha: *calmly* I hate them. *Catherine making strangled noises in the background* Alright for everyone listening, if you can figure out the Levon Helm tie-in because I'm sure it's something. I'm sure it's something, if  anybody found it. 

Catherine: Please let us know. I cannot with them.

Chrisha: Unbelievable.

Catherine: I cannot… I cannot, I cannot! Three names and the layers, Chrisha.

Chrisha: And you know they just sit there cackling coming up with this stuff, too, like… *mimics evil laughter* Like the gif of that iguana, ‘Hehehe.’

Catherine: *giggling* Mister Jensen Ackles who is “the right people will notice” man. *Chrisha scoffing in the background* I hate him. I love him and I hate him. Oh, my gosh. So that happens…

Chrisha: Alright, gotta get it together. Okay?

Catherine: ‘Kay… ‘Kay. Because there's a whole other journey that happened during this episode.

Chrisha: I gotta scream about Lata; it's important! I got things to say!

Catherine: Right. Let's talk about Lata. Oh, my gosh, what an episode!

Chrisha: Amazing. Like, I– Wow, I just– I did not anticipate any of this. Like, I knew there was something there, but Nida’s performance was just…

Catherine: She was incredible. I– I've been there recently with grief. And that was authentic.

Chrisha: Yeah, I mean, it really– *emotionally* This one will go down for me as one of those episodes that's kind of like foundational because it gets so in touch with something very personal to me, you know? And a lot of that goes down to yes, the writing, yes, the story. But yeah, the grief she brought to it, the emotion that she brought to it. It felt so incredibly raw and so real. It wasn't that–

Catherine: It wasn't the pretty cry. It wasn’t– it wasn't a single man tear.

Chrisha: It wasn't that like polished acting. Yeah, it was– She just, like went for it in a way that just felt so authentic in a way that you just don't get on TV that much. So I was just absolutely blown away

*excerpt from “You've Got a Friend” plays*
Lata: I left her. My father, he blamed Sania for making me disobedient, so he locked her in here without any heat. And it was… It was the coldest night of the year and… And Sania froze to death. And now we’re here, living what I put her through. And I’m just so sorry, Sania.
Carlos: Come here, Lata.
Lata: I’m so sorry! 

Catherine: It was raw. It was real.

Chrisha: Amazing.

Catherine: Yeah. So kudos. We haven't gotten to see the breadth of her acting skills, I don't think, until this episode because she's always playing the perky, happy, helpful person. And we knew she had some secrets, we knew there was some darkness in her past but man, I'm so glad that we saw that arc that they kind of hinted at fulfilled in this episode. And one of the things that really hit me is when she's telling John to not forget his breathing, she also reiterates Mary’s reassurance that it's not his fault even while she is completely blaming herself for her father's actions–

*excerpt from “You've Got a Friend” plays*
Lata: Don't forget your breathing, okay? And just remember, what happened last night, it's not your fault. 

Catherine: And that spoke so powerfully to me of how we can extend empathy towards others far more easily often than we can to ourselves.

Chrisha: Hundred percent.

Catherine: So that moment, especially when I was rewatching, just like, really hit me when she was speaking to John because I was like, she was able to say that to him while she was carrying this and not extending that warmth and loveliness and encouragement, and acceptance to herself. And so often the fears that we have, that we carry, the guilt that we carry, it becomes so massive that I think one of the big things for me about this was, it was just to speak the words out loud was that hard for her that it took her that much time and that length and breadth of pressure to be able to say it. Even after she had said part of it, she couldn't get the rest of it was just… *takes a steadying breath* I'm losing my words but I feel like one of the reasons that she was able to get out of it was because of that community that we keep talking about, because it wasn't just herself who was trapped in this place. She had Carlos there to talk her through it and to be concerned about, and how often do we carry things that we would never tell anyone our whole lives, because we don't feel like we have that person that we can talk to about it? So it just reinforced to me the importance of being able to have those relationships where you can say it all. And that's so, so rare. The whole thing was just very powerful for me. What are your thoughts about it?

Chrisha: You were talking about her extending empathy to others. I think it definitely put the scene with Mac– It really deepens that, too, that she was willing to extend empathy to this murderous ghost, but was still carrying this. But I think that the way that they brought Maggie back, which was just devastating by the way, it showed that it's not just about having the relationships, it's also about allowing yourself to be open, that that's a choice. Because Maggie was there, and Maggie was sharing with her; Maggie was open, Maggie wanted to hear what Lata had to say, but it was Lata holding herself back and not doing that even though it was hurting Maggie, even though she did have the relationship, you know?

*excerpt from “You've Got a Friend” plays*
Maggie: You wanna talk about it?
Lata: The fact that you're not real.
Maggie: You haven't changed, Lata. You still hold everything close to the vest. 

[later in the scene] 

Maggie: I was always the one you’d talk to. But not about everything.
Lata: That's not true. 

[later in the scene]

Maggie: And you know, that sweet, loving, dear old Maggie shared everything with you, and it hurt her, knowing you never shared your own secrets in return.

Chrisha: And so that, I feel like, was the evolution with Carlos, was that she was put in a position where it's like, okay, either say it or you both die–

*excerpt from “You've Got a Friend” plays*
Lata: I can’t, Carlos.
Carlos: Lata, you know I am prone to long, slow-build, catharsis-driven theater, but I don't think we have time for a one-act play here. 

Chrisha: –and so she opted to say it but then at the end, that recognition of ‘Okay, I don't want a bracelet to be the only reason that I talk about things’, you know, she had to make that choice to say, ‘I'm going to do things a different way.’

Catherine: Yes, it was that final step, right, in that last scene where she moved beyond the pressure induced situation to– It's not that her vulnerability wasn't authentic, but she was forced into it. And in the end, she chooses to be vulnerable and authentic with Carlos, and that is really important.

*excerpt from “You've Got a Friend” plays*
Lata: I don’t want a truth bracelet to be the only reason why I share things with you. So… There’s one more thing you should know.
Carlos: Okay. No judgments. Promise.
Lata: My parents aren’t dead.

Catherine: I'm so glad that you brought that up.

Chrisha: Yeah, she said one thing… It was when they were looking through Maggie's room so it was before they were in it, but Carlos was like ‘Why would she keep this a secret?’ And Lata said– 

*excerpt from “You've Got a Friend” plays*
Lata: People conceal things for all sorts of reasons, logical or not.

Chrisha: And I loved that line when I watched it the second time, because we can agree that Lata didn't carry any blame in this situation. Not– It was her father. It was her mother. She didn't do anything. She was being a kid. But trauma can really distort things in such a huge, huge way, and even at times when our logic brain can see ‘Okay, yeah, that wasn't mine to own’, the emotional piece of us may feel differently. I got the sense that in some part of herself Lata knew that this wasn't hers to own, but it didn't matter. She just still had to conceal. It was too painful to share.

Catherine: It was the emotion of it, yeah.

Chrisha: So I really appreciated that they put that line in there for her. That didn't really ping the first time through, because that's just one of those sage things that Lata says, but coming back to it was like, ah, yeah, yeah.

Catherine: Absolutely. That's been an ongoing theme. Because Ada talks about everything will come to light eventually. And now we have “People conceal things for all sorts of reasons, logical or not”. So this is obviously an ongoing theme about hidden things being revealed in the series. And I'm glad that they're talking about it, because I think all of us carry things that are not ours to own. Again, through the window of fiction, we can access important things for us to internalize, and I think that this episode was one of those really important messages and journeys that it's so good to see people doing that work on television, and in Supernatural.

Chrisha: Yeah. I gotta tell you the part that just– that got me was at the end when Lata’s sharing with Carlos by choice, and she says “My parents aren't dead”. And Carlos says–

*excerpt from “You've Got a Friend” plays*
Carlos: As far as I'm concerned, your parents are dead to me, so… I still have nothing but love for you. 

Chrisha: And I was like, that right there is like the ride or die support of found family. And I don't know that I've ever seen that, just like that distilled on TV, where he just put this serene smile, ‘They’re dead to me, honey, it’s fine’. I was like, ‘Oh, my God!’ Like– It's not just the importance of found family. Like I feel like Supernatural did a good job of recognizing the importance of found family. But this, we've talked about before, it's not found family as found family, it's found family as family. They become not just your new people, your new community, but they become this just incredible support, not only for the day to day of what you're experiencing now. But also when these kinds of things come up, to say,’That wasn't your fault. That wasn't on you.’ Carlos saying, ‘Lata, whatever it is, it's going to be okay.’ And we will get into this more in our next one, but Carlos says at the very end, because she's concerned about telling John and Mary because she's been lying to them–

Catherine: *softly* Oh my God, this line killed me. Yes. 

Chrisha: And he says–

*excerpt from “You've Got a Friend” plays*
Carlos: If you need time to tell them your story, take it, because it's your story to tell. But I can almost assure you, they won't love you any less. Same as me. Oh, come here. Let me hug you.
Lata: Thank you.

Chrisha: *very seriously* And I was like, number one: that's so beautiful. Number two: that's very gay.

Catherine: *bursts into startled laughter* Ok, I wasn't expecting that!

Chrisha: That is the quintessential queer coming out supportive response.

Catherine: *still laughing* Oh, my gosh, yes. Yes, it is. Okay. Yes. Yes. Oh, my goodness.

Chrisha: And so we got a whoooole bunch of stuff to talk about on that front. But I don't know, I just was like, ‘Oh, wow.’

Catherine: That resonated something in my soul that like… I just… Like the– the weight that that takes off. It did have me thinking of my experience of first starting to talk about being bisexual and how scary that was. And how I was afraid that it would change everything and everyone, and for some people it did. And so I’ve been careful. I'm not out to a lot of people really, but the right people, that's how they respond.

Chrisha: Yeah. And they both happen to be wearing blue in this scene. But that's fine, we’ll get to that.

Catherine: Good Lord. I was wondering why.

Chrisha: They don't usually wear blue. 

Catherine: I was wondering why! Good Lord

Chrisha: *delighted as Catherine groans dramatically in the background* Happiness is in just saying it.

Catherine: *muffled* Good LORD! Okay. *Chrisha laughing in the background* We’ve already reached the incoherent noises section of the podcast. You're welcome. I also wanted to just acknowledge quickly, although it's not as big of a point, she kept her head when things started to go sideways and they were locked inside the house. She was like–

*excerpt from “You've Got a Friend” plays*
Lata: Okay, we need to find its record in the lore. Then we'll have our answer. Just check there.

Catherine: I love that she is gaining that confidence and that she was like, ‘This is my thing. We can do it, we can figure it out.’ And she did. She was able to figure it out before things went even further sideways. But her gaining more of that confidence in high pressure situations when the first episode she was so nervous about what was going to happen and how she was going to react? I'm just like, ‘Yes, look at you go, look at you go. You're amazing.’

Chrisha: Yeah, she really was. Do you want to talk about the shadow monster?

Catherine: Yeah. So for our monster of the week, it was Erebus, the god of secrets and shadows.

Chrisha: *wryly* Hmm, no red string there.

Catherine: No red string. No red string. Especially not when you look up in real world mythology, the secrets part isn't part of the mythology. That was something they added in, in The Winchesters. So secrets and shadows hiding in the darkness. Yeah. So in real world mythology, Erebus is a primordial Greek god and the personification of darkness, and he reigns over a dark portion of the underworld. In Greek mythology, there was a series of gods before you get to Olympus and the famous gods like Zeus. And the really early ones were basically personifications of primordial things like darkness and light and all that kind of stuff. And darkness, Erebus, was born of chaos, and all I could hear when I read that was–

*excerpt from season fifteen, episode eighteen of Supernatural, “Despair” plays*
Billie: It's you, Dean. It's always been you. Death-defying. Rule-breaking. You are everything I lived to set right. To put down. To tame. You are human disorder incarnate. 

Chrisha: *floored* Oh, my God, I had not…Okay. Well, okay. 

Catherine: And then I like pulled my hair some more.

Chrisha: Yes. Well.

Catherine: And since we're thinking Dean and the incarnation of human disorder or chaos, right, and they added in secrets to shadows? I just… Listen, the red string keeps popping out. It's just like, it's everywhere. It's, it's everywhere. It's all around us,  Chrisha. We cannot escape the red string.

Chrisha: Well yeah, we were talking about plagues, right? And one of them was the darkness. So talking about locusts and the death of firstborn sons, now we have darkness–

Catherine: *gasps* Jess is going to be so excited! 

Chrisha: I know. And then also, I saw where some of the research said – is this the lore, do we get to call it the lore? –  so the lore says, “Though he plays no active role as a deity in later works, Erebus is used as a name for a region of the Greek underworld where the dead pass immediately after dying and is sometimes used interchangeably with Tartarus”, which I'm like, ‘A place the dead pass immediate…’ I don't know. 

Catherine: Pass through? 

Chrisha: It sounded, yeah, a little like, Purgatory-esque to me.

Catherine: Very much so, because in Greek mythology, there were the Elysian Fields, which was where you wanted to go where it was like, happy and literally fields and flowers, and then there was Tartarus, which was a place of shadows and darkness, and some places were better than others, but a lot of people went there to be tortured. It was not fun. So passing through darkness, hmm, on your way through the underworld. Okay!

Chrisha: I have other red string things, but we're gonna –we're gonna stop. We're gonna stop! That's a teaser.

Catherine: We need to talk about Carlos! We haven’t *stumbles over her words* talkin’ about him… talkin’ about him? Wow. *laughs and commits to the fumble* We haven't talkin’ about him yet.

Chrisha: No, we have not. I feel like Carlos primarily, in this episode, was support. He was there to support John and then support Lata, he supported Mary and yeah… Just, he is that wonderful, wonderful per– Like he's– he's so dramatic, right, and he's so big, and he was still him, right? Like there was never a point that he was dimming his own light to make space for everyone else. It wasn't that, but he could still be him in all of his glory while being there and being, like I said, just a true ride or die for the others. And I just– I loved seeing that, I loved seeing what that looks like. 

Catherine: We’ve talked before about how part of his way of expressing love for people is caretaking with food. And this episode opened on a shot of John with a cup of coffee in front of him and pulls back to show Carlos pouring another. So when John is shaken, Carlos is like, ‘I'm getting coffee.’ And he comes in with two more cups per way through them talking stuff through, so I liked seeing little threads of who he is reinforced in this episode, as well as what you were talking about how he was big and loud and wonderful. I mean, he like pops his head in when they’re slapping the bracelet on Betty and is like–

*excerpt from “You've Got a Friend” plays*
Carlos: Drugs should be legalized!

Catherine: *laughing* That was wonderful.

Chrisha: Truly.

Catherine: And the moment where he kisses his palm and like, presses his palm to the Cher poster?

Chrisha: To Cher! Aw. Yeah. 

*excerpt from “You've Got a Friend” plays*
Carlos: I love you. 

Catherine: I love that we got to see his true self while he was letting himself not take the starring role.

Chrisha: Yeah, absolutely. And I don't think that that is seen a lot in fiction. I feel like, it's everybody takes turns being the center of attention and therefore being themselves. And I think that that can translate to a lot of people being confused as to what it looks like to be supportive while still being authentic. I just really appreciated that.

Catherine: Yeah, there were just some really great lines in this episode.

Chrisha: There always are. 

Catherine: Yeah, like he's like–

*excerpt from “You've Got a Friend” plays*
Carlos: No– Alright, I have an idea. It's– it's basically just like this, but just a little more aggressive and violent. 

Chrisha: Yup. And they're like, ‘Yeah, okay.’

*both laugh* 

Catherine: It’s so great. And then we had more dialogue in Spanish, which was awesome. They didn't translate the part right before he punched her on my television. 

*excerpt from “You've Got a Friend” plays*
Betty: Okay. Haz le bien. Y rápido. [Okay. Make it look good. And make it quick.]
Carlos: Besos. 

Catherine: But ‘besos’ just means kisses.

Chrisha: Yeah, I think they did on mine.

Catherine: So he’s literally like *kissing noises* ‘Mwah, mwah, punch!’ I just love Carlos. Briefly, I would like to talk a little bit about Millie, because I talked about last time how I think we've seen some healing in her. We kind of talked about that a little bit and how her behavior was changing. And first of all, I just need to give her kudos for managing to get John out of the garage and away in an untraceable vehicle before the cops showed up. 

Chrisha: Right? Like, impressive. 

Catherine: Because there were lights on in the ending of the last episode; they were not far away. And she got him out of there. 

*excerpt from “You've Got a Friend” plays*
John: My mom got there and he was… dead. The cops were behind her so she gave me the keys to a junk car. Told me to lay low so I came here. 

Catherine: And she knows ‘Don't tell the cops anything’. She does say ‘Who's Kyle?’, just like, yes, thank you. Thank you, Millie. She also talks Mary down when she's going into solo mode. I give a lot of credit to Mary because she actually stopped and listened but I don't think that Millie's approach would have been what it was at the beginning of this series. Maybe it's different because it's with Mary but she was just like–

*excerpt from “You've Got a Friend” plays*
Millie: Okay, I get it. I was young and dumb once, too. But–

Catherine: ‘But’... And she really tries to have Mary think things through. Whereas at the beginning of the series with John, she was just constantly making assumptions and putting him down. It was a very negative cycle. For me, part of the switch was when she got into the house right after they broke the consequences of the bracelet. She doesn't start with ‘Why didn't you answer the phone?’ She starts with–

*excerpt from “You've Got a Friend” plays*
Millie: Oh, thank God. Are you guys okay? 

Catherine: And I think that's a big shift from the woman who was like ‘So when are you going to get a job?’ after her son stepped off of the bus from Vietnam. You know what I mean?

Chrisha: I do, I've noticed a big shift, too, in the ways that I experience her. And I think that what stood out for me in this episode was that I could feel a shift happening within Millie. And I've been doing some thinking about it. I think that Millie had this idea of who she wanted John to be, and the life that she wanted him to live. And he was not doing that, which is a common parent-child trope. And she was already mad at Henry and now she has said she could see history repeating, and so she's mad. We saw her being close to Betty throughout the series, because I think that Betty really personified the life that Millie wanted for John. She wanted him to settle down with a nice girl and have a nice quiet life. And he just didn't do that. But Millie was continuing to not just have contact with Betty but to deepen contact with Betty, you know? ‘It's not Mrs. Winchester, it's Millie’, trying to really strengthen that because I think that there was a part of her – maybe – that for a long time there, still hoped that John would go back to her and would settle down and have that life. And I think that within the course of this episode, we can see that internally shifting for her, because she wanted to bring Betty in. She wanted Betty to be the one to come in and save John. And then at some point she had to accept, okay, Mary is actually the better partner for who John truly is. She sees John. She's the one that will do whatever it takes, even if it is bonkers to protect John. And so then she changed and she started trying to mother Mary in a way that I think was very new. And she was trying to talk her down, but she was doing it in a very maternal kind of way, and so for me, that was the shift from John not meeting her expectations, to shifting towards acceptance of who John is. That just really kind of unlocked a lot of things for her, for their relationship. And yeah, I do think that having some closure with Henry definitely, definitely played a role. But that's kind of the way that I saw it, and so I am feeling much more positive towards Millie, because I think that Millie is finally starting to see John and see Mary and support and accept, because at the end of the last episode, it was John there with blood everywhere and a body, and then Millie walking in and it was ‘Is she gonna believe him?’ And the answer is yeah, she didn't hesitate. She threw him some keys. She got him out of there. And then she did everything that she could to support him even when Betty didn't. So I thought it was a real turning point. 

Catherine: They've even changed the way that they're doing her makeup, I noticed. She's looking much more natural in the way that they do her makeup and it makes her look softer, and more approachable, I feel. It's amazing what you can do with makeup – because she always looks phenomenal – but it was a shift for me visually over the last couple of episodes with her and I was finally like, ‘Oh, they're doing her makeup differently. That's what it is.’ Contrasting Millie with Betty: I know we've touched upon Betty a few times but wow, I got it wrong last time. I was like, ‘She's a smart person.’ Like, if she's told the truth she'll– she'll figure it out and that was not what happened.

*excerpt from “You've Got a Friend” plays*
Mary: John says you're a great cop, so I'm assuming you've noticed that something has been off in Lawrence recently.
Betty: Everything that's been off, you've been around for.
Mary: The bank truck heist, my neighbor Carrie going missing… that didn't go down the way you think.
Betty: Did you and John even meet at college?
Mary: We met hunting monsters.

[later in the scene]

Betty: Okay, okay. Let's pretend for a second that both of you are not crazy. What does any of this have to do with what's going on with John?
Millie: John didn't kill Kyle. Kyle killed himself.
Mary: He was possessed. And the things that possessed him are taking over people all over town, including some in your own department. They're called Akrida. And they're setting John up–
Betty: Okay, stop.

Chrisha: I was surprised, too, I really was.

Catherine: There was a moment where you felt like, ‘Okay, she's gonna go for it.’ But it was like her dislike and jealousy was too deep. 

Chrisha: Yep. I think that's exactly what it was. 

Catherine: Yeah, she couldn't go there. And it was that point where she was like–

*excerpt from “You've Got a Friend” plays*
Betty: Her, I can expect this from. But you? I trusted you.

Catherine: –she said to Millie and I was like, oh, okay, so because Millie is siding with the new girl and trying to protect her son, you're feeling like she's now untrustworthy? Like, what? What?

Chrisha: Yeah, yikes. 

Catherine: Yeah, that was definitely an ouch. They did a few interesting things with her character. This was the second time that Mary faked her out, where she thought she caught Mary doing something wrong, and Mary was wanting to get caught, which I loved.

*excerpt from “You've Got a Friend” plays*
Betty: Did you really think this was gonna end any other way?
Mary: No. I just had to keep you distracted long enough.

[later in the scene]

Betty: What are you doing?
Millie: Trying to save my son.

Chrisha: Fool me once, but yeah. Oops!

Catherine: I also– I understand that it was a struggle, but I don't believe that she was fearing for her life and she pulled a gun on Mary, and that was intense. I was like, ‘Okay, wow.’ Mary expected it and was ready for it and I was like, ‘Oh, okay.’ So I loved that they did that kind of switcheroo on us as an audience, not including us in that we're kind of going, ‘Oh, no, Mary’s decided to go it on her own after all, and what's going to happen and it's going all sideways.’ And then it's like, ‘Oh, no, she actually… Yep, she got her twice.’

Chrisha: Mmhmm. She did indeed. But I think it's important to recognize that what Betty said was, ‘Did you really think this was going to end any other way?’

Catherine: Good Lord. 

Chrisha: And it was a distraction. It wasn't real. And so in the finale [of Supernatural], we get ‘It was always going to be this way’. *Catherine takes a shocked breath in the background* But this is showing us Betty saying, basically it was always going to be this way, but it was not that way. It was a distraction from the bigger story. 

Catherine: It was not! There was stuff that we didn't see that was having a very different narrative. *Chrisha takes a deep breath* Isn't that exactly the plot of like, one of the other recent episodes? Yeah, with the vampires. They did the exact same thing!

Chrisha: *grimly* Keeps coming up a lot. It’s fine. It's not making me nuts at all. Totally normal about it. 

Catherine: Same. Absolutely.

Chrisha: Disrupting fate? No, I don't know why that would ping anything around here. *Catherine giggling in the background* And then later Betty says– 

*excerpt from “You've Got a Friend” plays*
Betty: Well, sometimes doing the right thing means doing the wrong thing.

Catherine: That was exactly where my brain went! We were just talking about that, about how being ethical is different from being law abiding. Which was like, ‘Oh, well, look at what they– It was one of those other nice little moments of this episode.

Chrisha: *laughing* There was a lot in this one where I was like, ‘Oh, that's nice. That's nice. And that's nice.’

Catherine: We've been doing well..

Chrisha: Yeah. Oh, and the Akrida  were being beamed down through radio waves.

*excerpt from “You've Got a Friend” plays*
Carlos: Okay, just take a look around. See for yourself.
Betty: ¡Dios mío! [My God!]

Chrisha: I can't, I swear to God… *Catherine is losing it in the background* Or beaming up? I don't know. I don't even know what to call it, that was just like, okay.

Catherine: *muffled, her hands are over her mouth* They were! It was! Oh, my goodness. Okay. Yeah, the community– That would be like the hive mind, all connected through the air waves literally. *disbelievingly singsongs the next bit as she processes the information* I had not realized that that was what that was. My brain is currently experiencing a reboot.

Chrisha: There's just so much in these episodes!

Catherine: And we’re not even in the red string episode! 

Chrisha: And– And! This last one and then we will stop, and we will get more into red string. But Carlos says–

*excerpt from “You've Got a Friend” plays*
Carlos: Well, I guess the truth really does set you free.
Lata: In more ways than one.

Chrisha: That's it. I'm done now.

Catherine: *muttering* I’m gonna make inarticulate noises again… Good Lord.

Chrisha: This frickin show!

Catherine: I mean, there's so much more to talk about. I have to say, his name was Detective Klett, the guy who was the Akrida cop guy. He had some great lines, too–

*excerpt from “You've Got a Friend” plays*
Detective Klett: You got spunk, Winchester. Dumb as a bag of hair, but at least you went down swinging.

Catherine: *laughing* So wonderful. 

Chrisha: The writing was really, really good in this episode, I did notice. Just so many good lines. The arcs were good, just everything, it was just chef's kiss, the whole thing.

Catherine: Yeah, I really enjoyed it. Yep. Should we end it there? Probably for this episode? 

Chrisha: I think so, yes. And then we can just go buckwild in the next one so….

Catherine: Fantastic. Okay, you can message us and stay up to date with the latest on our Twitter page, which is @TheFangirlBiz, that's B-I-Zee or B-I-Zed, depending on where you live in the world. As always, you can also join our Kofi at the bottom tier for one dollar a month and be part of our Discord group which–

Chrisha: Come scream with us.

Catherine: Yup! Do it! We will see you again next time. And until then, carry on, Wayward Friends. We love you! Bye! 

Chrisha: Bye!

Outro Instrumental Rock Music: “Play the Game” by VooDoo Blooze


Catherine: Mary… Shoot, I left open my Discord and it's gonna be deep in the background and I don't know if that's going to be a problem. So just let me x out of there.

Chrisha: I mean, it's not– It never shows up on the audio, but–

Catherine: Oh, it doesn’t?

Chrisha: –it's distracting.

Catherine: It is. That's true. I am highly distractible at this stage. Squirrel!