14: "The Winchesters" E10 - Prions & Proteins, Problems & Successes

CONTENT WARNING: This episode includes discussions of Holocaust imagery and the medical and institutional history of targeting marginalized and oppressed groups for exploitation and experimentation. Please be mindful of your wellbeing when deciding to listen (Begins 19:14; Ends 30:18).

In this episode, Chrisha and Catherine discuss the troubling elements of "Suspicious Minds", questioning some of the decisions that were made and discussing the real-life roots of the tradition of the medical and institutional horror genre in the legacy of white supremacy.

They also talk about what is and isn't love, Carlos' and Lata's developing romantic relationships, the experience of being a vessel and Roxy's storyline, the Akrida's plot to frame John for the murder of Kyle, and Dean's new photo.

The Winchesters audio clip credits: The CW
Supenatural  audio clip credits: The CW
Music clips: "Suspicious Minds" by Elvis Presley

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Transcript

Disclaimer: Welcome to The Fangirl Business: A Supernatural Podcast. The information presented in this podcast is intended to be for entertainment and educational purposes only. It should never be used in place of advice given by a mental health or medical professional or as a substitute for mental health treatment. If you are struggling with a mental health issue, please seek treatment from a mental health professional in your area.

Intro Instrumental Rock Music: “Play the Game” by VooDoo Blooze

Chrisha: Hello, and welcome to this episode of The Fangirl Business. 

Catherine: I'm Catherine. 

Chrisha: And I'm Chrisha. And today we are here to talk about season 1 episode 10 of The Winchesters “Suspicious Minds.” And yeah, that's me watching the show all the time. Suspicious. What are y'all doing?

Catherine: *laughs* We just want to talk, Robbie, we just want to talk.

Chrisha: What are you doing? *in a laughing voice* I am deeply suspicious of your motives, friends. What are you doing?

Catherine: *laughs* Yes, very much so. Uh, it was a very apt title for us sitting in our homes, watching our televisions as we go through this series. *laughs* I mean, but that's part of the fun of it, right? It's a mystery. We're trying to figure out what's going on, and I was talking with our friend about it this week and that's part of what I get excited about and what I missed after Supernatural ended was the idea of possibilities. 

Chrisha: Yeah!

Catherine: How exciting it is that it could be this thing, or this thing, or this thing over here. I get very excited about it. And I've been very much enjoying having mysteries to solve and things to consider. 

Chrisha: Yes, very much. 

Catherine: Before we get into it, is it okay if I just talk a little bit about the writers and director? Gabriel Alejandro Garza and Julia Cooperman. This is their second episode, each writing for The Winchesters this season. Garza wrote "You’re Lost, Little Girl" and Cooperman wrote "Masters of War." Gabriel has written for The Flash and Bella and the Bulldogs, which seems like a TV show, and The Penguins of Madagascar, which is animated. Julia has written for Colony, which is a pretty big show, and also another animated series as well, called Pantheon. So it seems like they've had some work, but they're kind of early in their careers. Which again, I love the range that they're using for different writers at different stages in their careers and giving lots of different people opportunities. The director was Andy Armaganian and she started on Star Girl and then she's moved on to the new Star Trek rebooted series which are Discovery and Strange New Worlds, which I love. I am a Trekkie and have been since I was a teenager. So I really love those series and it was nice to see someone working here who's working on some other really strong series that are current right now. So that's it for that stuff. Do we want to talk about Dean?

Chrisha: I mean, always. I'm always down to talk about Dean.

Catherine: Excellent. Excellent. His intro this time says: 

*Voice clip from season 1 episode 10 of The Winchesters, “Suspicious Minds,” plays*  Dean: Hunting and happy endings don’t usually mix. So when you get your chance, you got to ask yourself: How far will I go to get it?”

Chrisha: *sobbing sound*

Catherine: Hmmm *makes overwhelmed sound*

Chrisha: *emotional voice* Is my baby talking about happy endings and fighting for one? *Deep breaths*

Catherine: *startled* Oh my gosh, I didn't even― Okay. 

*Both laugh*

Catherine: Oh dear, I did not ... nope.

Chrisha: Yeah, I definitely heard Dean talking about happy endings and how far will he go to get it, and I think I was just like screaming in all caps in the Discord at that point just like―*in a mock screaming low voice* 'IS HE TALKING ABOUT FIGHTING FOR HIS HAPPY ENDING???' *inside voice scream*

Catherine: *giggles* I had not― See this is― *snorts* This is why it's good that you are my friend, because *laughs* you always pick up on this stuff and I'm always like, "Ohhhh!" *in a revelatory tone*

*both laugh*

Chrisha: I mean, we each have our things that we pick up and the other one does not. But, considering I think every week it's, it's just more and more confirmed that the show is Dean processing his own experiences... the fact that he is thinking about happy endings, he's thinking about what is he willing to do?

Catherine: *blows breath out so forcefully her lips flap* And now my brain is kind of going okay, "Is this―is he hunting the Akrida? For―" Like, because I've been thinking, "Okay, this has got to be some God-level stuff. He's being sent to do something because of the Akrida." But like, what if this is like a roundabout way have something to do with reuniting with Cas. Wha―what if all of this is about Cas? That would be... Is that too wild, Chrisha? Or am I like, stretching too far?

Chrisha: I mean, I don't know how to answer that, because I'm right there with you. 

Catherine: Okay *giggles* 

Chrisha: I think that some of it, of course, has always been wishful thinking in terms of, like, that's what I'm wishing, so that is my thinking. But also―also we... Sort of like we talked about in the last episode, where it's like, okay, so we got the "Despair" scene reflection. And so, like, we thought that happened... And then it happened again. 

Catherine: Right!

Chrisha: And then it's like, "Uhhhh, okay." Ummm ... *laughs*

Catherine: *laughing* We got, like, two "Despair" scenes with two kisses! Not one, but two! 

Chrisha: And so, like, the themes keep coming. And yes, of course, like we knew, and we owned, I think, very―before the show even started―that, like, we know the lens that we watch the show through, and it's very Cas. It's very Destiel. But I frankly didn't expect it to be nearly as blunt as it is?

Catherine: Yeah, me neither.

Chrisha: Which is making me think I'm bonkers. But then I also think about Daneel standing on stage at New York Comic Con holding up picture of Cas―

Catherine: I know. 

Chrisha: ―so I'm like, "That's not just us." 

Catherine: That's a thing that happened. 

Chrisha: You know? She didn't―why why would she roll it up to just be Cas? Like, why? *laughs* She rolled her husband back! *laughs* Ya know?

Catherine: *laughing* Yes, she did. It was marvelous. 

Chrisha: So, I mean, when we think about Dean, and we think about unfinished business, it's really hard not to go to Cas.

Catherine: The Sam absence is kind of remarkable. And I'm saying this as somebody who loves Sam as a character. I mean, other than the very first episode where he's talking about Mom and Dad, instead of my mom and dad. So we're inferring that he's writing to Sam, his brother, who it's also his mom and dad―

Chrisha: And the Samulet. 

Catherine: ―and the Samulet. Right. And the Samulet―there just hasn't been a lot of Sam stuff. I mean, there are different characters who remind me of Sam at different times, but he's not popping up the way that Cas keeps popping up, you know?

Chrisha: I agree. 

Catherine: Which is actually quite surprising. Because I mean, for a lot of people, it's always been the Sam and Dean show.

Chrisha: Right.

Catherine: Not the Cas and Dean show. 

Chrisha: Well and for Dean, Sam was always the top priority. Which I feel like to my mind is the critical piece of that, which is that: I do you feel like for as much as I really hate the abomination that is the finale―

Catherine: *snickers*

Chrisha: ―the one thing that I feel like Dean did get out of it, is being able to let go of his responsibility towards Sam. And this show seems to be focused on Dean's experience, Dean's happiness, which is what he never got to do in Supernatural, because he was always prioritizing Sam―and frankly, the world―above himself.

Catherine: Yes. Yeah. Everybody else came first. 

Chrisha: Yeah. And so when it comes to Sam, I do feel like in Supernatural... I don't want to say got closure necessarily, but like kinda? You know? But with Cas, he did not. And so I guess from that perspective, it kind of makes sense that Cas is more present on his mind, if that's how we're going to interpret this?

Catherine: Yeah. 

Chrisha: But it is surprising, I agree, the lack of Sam.

Catherine: Yeah. Yeah, I just hadn't had that thought until right now, as we're recording. And it is quite startling, as I'm reflecting on it, that Sam is not popping up more. Well, I'll have to do some more thinking on that before we record again.

Chrisha: So going back to Dean's narration. 

Catherine: Yeah.

Chrisha: A couple things jumped out at me. And I think you and I talked before we started recording about how this episode was a little different in terms of approach, in that it really is a thematic-based episode, versus individual character arcs. 

Catherine: Yes. 

Chrisha: So that may change a little bit the way that we talk about it. I feel like we had a sort of standard structure. It'll be difficult to stick to that, I feel like, because it's all these broad themes.

Catherine: I think the best way to tackle it is probably to look at the pairs of people in this episode and how their arcs went together, rather than separately.

Chrisha: The one thing I noticed visually about Dean's narration is that as he was talking about happy endings, and how far will I go to get it? The visual was the KSU acceptance letter laying on the desk. 

Catherine: Ohhhhhh.

Chrisha: And so John had just said: 

*Voice clip from season 1 episode 10 of The Winchesters, “Suspicious Minds,” plays*  John: Normal lies right around the corner for you, Campbell.
Mary: *Laughs*

Chrisha: So I thought that that was really interesting for a couple of reasons. Because it's showing that happiness for Mary... Is that a normal life? I mean, it's certainly a future-thinking document, right, being accepted to college. But it also reminded me, *pained sound* kind of viscerally of that application in the finale of Dean's―

Catherine: Right, 

Chrisha: ―on the desk that I had to take second, and take a breath about. *pained laughter* 

Catherine: Yep. Undertandably.

Chrisha: Because it's really had complicated feelings about that application. Mmm. Yeah. So the parallel there, when Dean's ending was such a tragedy. And then we also know that Mary's end is a tragedy.

Catherine: Yes, at least in our universe.

Chrisha: I don't know. It was just very like ... oof! It was, it was very heavy, but then also was like, "He's really trying to change it, isn’t he?" Like I... I feel like that's what he's doing.

Catherine: Yeah. And, I mean, there have been a lot of things that I've been thinking about in terms of, "Is this an AU? Is this not an AU? What might be his motivation for changing things if it's not his world? If it's somebody else's world?" And you know, I'm leaning towards this being an AU, because of all the different monsters. So why would he go meddling somewhere else knocking over dominoes, if it's not to change the ending of the story. I have a lot of ideas about that, and some of them are pretty pie in the sky. But basically, one of the reasons that I don't think that he would be meddling in his own universe with his parents is because of the episode "Lebanon," where he says, "I'm good with who I am." And the difference between who he is if things change, if John doesn't die, if he comes forward and alters the track of that universe, he and Sam obviously aren't close. He is a wanted fugitive. And he had that opportunity to look back at his life, and all of the tragedy that had happened, but also all of the victories, his newfound family, with Jack, with Cas, with Sam, all of them together and said, like, basically, "I don't want to change that. I'm good with who I am." So that's why my leaning towards of things is that he wouldn't go back and change his parents story in his own universe, because that would change so much. So that's why I'm thinking he might be somewhere else.

Chrisha: It makes a tremendous amount of sense that he doesn't want to change his life. It seems like maybe he would like to continue to fight for himself and his happiness, but not by going back and changing it. Which begs the question of then, why is he doing it here? 

Catherine: Right.

Chrisha: We learned a lot about him, actually, in this episode. It was very quick little things. The Akrida having their little meeting to talk about Dean Winchester, which I mean, relatable.

*both laugh*

Chrisha: I do that too, I get it. 

Catherine: Yep. 

*more laughter* 

Chrisha: They said that he's the reason the Monster Club formed. He got the Scooby Gang together. And we also know that the Akrida’s primary goal is taking out Dean. So they're just obsessed with him, too. Again, I get it. 

Voice clip from season 1 episode 10 of The Winchesters, “Suspicious Minds,” plays*
Akrida Kyle: The Queen thinks these pests may still be useful, mainly leading us to this bastard. Queen believes he's a hunter himself. And by all accounts from our spies in the field, he's the reason hunters’ merry band got together.
Unnamed Akrida: He needs to be eliminated. But how? We don't even know who he is.
Akrida Kyle: I have a plan. We just need to spill a little human blood.

Chrisha: And so they were actively using the Scooby Gang to get monster essence, which I think we already knew. And now they've switched to instead of just killing them outright, they're going to use them to flush out Dean, essentially. But they also don't know who he is, which I find endlessly hilarious that they're just like, "Oh, yeah, that guy. Yeah, we gotta find him." Again, it's relatable.

*both cackle*

Chrisha: It’s relatable. Who’s that guy?

*both continue to cackle* 

Catherine: Yup. 

Chrisha: Dean's power. Dean’s power.

Catherine: Very relatable.

*both laugh*

Catherine: I agree with everything that you just said. I think still the big question is what is he doing there?

Chrisha: Right. Mmhm.

Catherine: Why is he knocking over dominoes? The visual image of that is once everything falls over, usually people create these, like, intricate patterns out of stuff. And it all kind of makes sense. But you have to knock over the first domino to get the rest to fall the way you want them to. What kind of picture is he trying to build? What is he trying to do? And And why isn't Heaven smiting him for interfering?

Chrisha: So many questions? Yes.

Catherine: I really do feel like there's some God-level stuff going on here and I can't wait to find out more. I'm hooked. I've said it before, I'm hooked.

Chrisha: Well, you know, I gotta say, and I'm trying not to jump ahead here, but I'm just gonna because it's my podcast, dammit. I can!

*both wheeze laugh*

Chrisha: Which is just that, we found out that British guy... non British guy? Like, that guy―

Catherine: *curiously* Yeah.

Chrisha:  ―who was trying to play God in all of this? That his name was Jack. Like, that was the big reveal. 

Catherine: Oh my goodness.

Chrisha: I'm like, "Oh, okay." *drums fingers on desk* "Yeah, all right." *laughs*

Catherine: *takes a deep breath* Oh my goodness. Okay. Also jumping ahead. This goes back. Do you remember the sitcom The Nanny? 

Chrisha: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Mr. Sheffield, for sure. 

Catherine: *voice high-pitched with excitement* Yes, it was Mr. Sheffield!

Chrisha: Mmhmm. On the night that we were watching live, yeah, my whole Twitter timeline was just like, “It’s Mr. Sheffield!!!!” 

*Catherine cracks up in the background*

Chrisha: Which is wild for me because I actually knew him from Days of Our Lives. So for me, Shane.

Catherine: Ohhhh, okay. I was forbidden from watching soap operas, so...

Chrisha: That’s fair. *laughing* I shouldn't have been. 

*both laugh*

Catherine: Which made it even more hilarious when he goes, "Now I can drop the phony accent!" because he's British. He's―he's actually British. *laughs*

Chrisha: *groans* So I mean, maybe we could start there, I guess kind of which is that... I don't know about you. But for me for the first time, one of the storylines just didn't work for me. 

Catherine: Oooh. Tell me more. 

Chrisha: I just didn't― *lets out a frustrated breath* So the storyline with John and Mary and this―I want to call him British Men of Letters because he was British and Men of Letters, but not, but is. I don't know. Also a sociopath. So there's that. There was a lot of problems in it from my perspective. Eh, I don't know. It just was very cheesy to me. 

Catherine: Oh, really? 

Chrisha: Yeah. The accent piece for sure. Even―like, I know, he's British. I know who he is. I've seen him act on screen a bajillion times. And even when he was using his British accent, it sounded fake!

*wheezing laughter from both*

Chrisha: And then when he switched, I was like, "What is that?" Like, I can't―it pulled me out. Because I was just like, I don't even―I can't even identify that accent, and I am an American.

Catherine: To me that was generic southern drawl. 

Chrisha: Yeah, but that's not what that sounds like. Ummmm...

*both laugh*

Catherine: It worked for the Canadian. I mean, this is, like, the stereotyping in reverse, where like Americans are always like, "Eh, a-boot!" about Candians.

Chrisha: Right. Right. Exactly. It just was very―it felt very forced. It was very ... odd.

Catherine: Okay.

Chrisha: So that pulled me out a little. And again, I know that actor, Charles Shaughnessy, I've known him forever. I know he's amazing. It's strange, I think: First of all, it's very rare that we get an actor on Supernatural that is already very, very, very well established, to where it's like, I already associate him in other places, if ... you know what I mean? Like, I feel like we know them? But he had... *sighs* Even though I know him as Shane, I still looked at him and was like *happy voice* "Mr. Sheffield!" Like it―which also pulled me out a little bit, I think.

Catherine: Okay.

Chrisha: Which isn't his fault. It's not like, "Oh, they got a famous actor. How awful of them!" *laughs* Just, it was, like, one of a whole lot of things that kept kind of pulling me out of the thing. 

Catherine: So what were the other things? Like, what were the parts of the plot that didn't work for you?

CONTENT WARNING: Beginning of discussion of Holocaust imagery and the medical and institutional history of targeting marginalized and oppressed groups for exploitation and experimentation. If you want to skip, please look for "End of Content Warning" in caps and bold below.

Chrisha: I think some of it was that it was very obvious. We kind of knew he was the bad guy after he spoke, like, three sentences.

Catherine: *snorts*

Chrisha: So it wasn't like a big reveal or anything. I kept going, like, "Mary, how is it that I figured it out and you haven't?" Like, wut? So that part of it I struggled with. And then, I think the show has been very careful with trying to be very inclusive and very sensitive. And they misstepped hard in this episode, which was really disappointing. For any of our Jewish friends out there, I just want to recognize that I'm going to talk about some insensitivity there. So just as sort of a content warning, which is that the Golem is a Jewish protector, right? That's where the Golems has come from. The way that they defeated him ... involved an oven. 

Catherine: *exhales* Oh my gosh. *horrified*

Chrisha: Which was just ... really not okay. Like just really not okay.

Catherine: *shocked voice* Oh, dear. Oh dear. I hadn't put that together. Oh my.

Chrisha: I mean, I think that they were going for like a kiln kind of thing, since he's made of clay. But .... *makes unhappy sound*

Catherine: *muffled* Yeah.

Chrisha: So a number of things about that storyline were just like, yikes. 

Catherine: Oh, dear. Yeah, no, that's ... that's a problem. I hadn't made that connection. And ... wow, that's a problem.

Chrisha: Mmhmm. Yeah, I didn't―

Catherine: *overlapping* Like―I’m sorry [apologizing for interrupting]. I'm just kind of, *shocked voice* "Whoa." 

Chrisha: I didn't go there immediately either. But it's certainly something that came up that a lot of people did note pretty immediately. So it certainly hit a lot of people in a hard way. 

Catherine: That’s actually quite interesting. Because every week, I kind of tried to break down, "Okay, who's the Monster of the Week versus, like, the ongoing Big Bad story." And I actually wrote down this week that the Men of Letters were the Big Bad.

Chrisha: Right.

Catherine: For me, part of the reason why the story worked and was important was because it continued to complicate the legacy of the Men of Letters in ways that they kind of touched upon in Supernatural. And I'm talking the American Men of Letters. The British Men of Letters, for me, is a completely separate entity.

Chrisha: Right.

Catherine: It was continuing to do that work of showing how institutions that are supposed to be doing good have often been used to do deep, deep harm to different communities. There were a few things that took me in that direction. One of the things was his comment about how they created these guard dogs for the Men of Letters locations. We were actually talking about that just a few episodes ago. And one of the things that we were saying was, like, werewolves are people, at least in the universe that we know of. And here this guy was casually talking about lobotomizing these monsters so that they would lose their free will and become these mindless guard dogs who their sole purpose is to guard Men of Letters properties where there isn't anyone else to guard them. Like you said, within five sentences you know there's a problem.

"Voice clip from season 1 episode 10 of The Winchesters, “Suspicious Minds,” plays* 
Porter Hobbes: No, I was brought in to experiment on the minds of monsters. I was mostly tasked with turning monsters into watchdogs to guard our more secure locations. A lobotomy to the frontal cortex makes many a monster subservient.

Catherine: But Mary and John don't react to that. And I think a part of it is, within the culture of the 1970s lobotomies were still a thing. They were starting to become, but they weren't viewed as yet, the way that we'd see it today. I think people were starting to acknowledge that they were problematic, but they were still happening. And lobotomies are horrifying. They're absolutely horrifying. And then he says:

*Voice clip from season 1 episode 10 of The Winchesters, “Suspicious Minds,” plays*
Porter Hobbes: Now by folding the cellular protein of an Akrida into an abnormal protein―

Catherine: Which was interesting: In closed captions, it replaced "protein" with "prion." 

*Voice clip from season 1 episode 10 of The Winchesters, “Suspicious Minds," continues*
Porter Hobbes: ―well, that's basically a misfolded protein―I can produce a neurotoxin that will ravage the Queen's DNA. *with relish* Oh, she’ll suffer greatly before dying. 

Catherine: And prion diseases are an actual thing. And they're horrifying. I've looked it up and I've got a definition here: "A prion virus is an abnormal pathogenic agent that is transmissible and is able to induce abnormal folding of specific normal cellular proteins, called prion proteins, that are found most abundantly in the brain." So prion disease basically works to cause this misfolding that he's talking about, and it ravages people's brains. That's what Mad Cow is. That's what a whole bunch of really terrible diseases are.

Chrisha: *makes disgusted/upset noise*

Catherine: And he's casually talking about creating in a lab this ... thing. I mean, ultimately, that's not what he was going to do, we find out, but―

Chrisha: It's probably what he did, though, before. 

Catherine: Yeah, exactly. Like he knew enough to know to be able to do that, and to make it sound viable and plausible. So what I felt this episode was doing was pulling on medical and institutional horror traditions, which are based in real life. So you have things like the Tuskegee Study [Note: Should be referred to as the Tuskegee Experiment], from 1932 to 1972, which targeted Black men [Note: by infecting them with syphillis] with no consent, no info. Even after penicillin was introduced in 1943, nobody was treated with it. That went for ... for decades.

Chrisha: *somberly* Yeah.

Catherine: One other random thing that I found was in the 1950s and 60s, there's a documented case of an oncologist who gave prisoners live cancer cells to see how immune responses worked in healthy and unhealthy immune systems.

Chrisha: *makes a sound of digust*

Catherine: This was with no consent and improperly informed consent. And of course, the Nazis were infamous for this, but it also happened in America and all over the world, right? It was often used on people that are classified as "Other." So Black men, prisoners, people who live in poverty, Jewish people. And so I think that part of what this episode of television was trying to do was to show the legacy of what so-called "good" organizations actually leaves in the world. And Mary and John not reacting to the lobotomization of Others, monsters, is very much the reaction of white people for decades and decades to these kinds of experiments. People knew they were going on, and nobody reacted. Nobody did anything. So I think they were tackling some really heavy stuff here. And while I am appalled by the fact that they use that particular method of killing the Golem, I think it does feed into that overall theme of the legacy that people in power, who are most often white, have. And this Golem was a victim.

Chrisha: Right!

Catherine: He had a mask on, so he could never remove the scroll from his mouth. Why do you think he had a mask on, you know? And you contrast that with the relationship that Aaron had with his Golem. At first, I think he thought he was a bit of a burden. But he became his partner as he moved on. And we see that in some quick flashes we have of him down the road working on continued cases to do with the really horrible Nazi guys. But the "good guys" kill the Golem, even though he isn’t inherently evil.

Chrisha: Right.

Catherine: And he's obviously been held captive by this deranged man. What are your thoughts? That's where I was going with it all.

Chrisha: No, I think that's really important. And I had not really considered it from that perspective. But absolutely. And I think that that really gets to another issue that I had with this storyline in general, which is that I was pretty disappointed in Mary and John. Primarily Mary, because for as much as there's societal norms, and there's things that were going on, I feel like the hunting life really forces you to have a much more evolved sense of right and wrong.

Catherine: Yes.

Chrisha: Within this episode, I was just really disappointed hearing about Hobbes, Jack, experimenting on monsters was like, "Oh, that's fine. We'll keep working with him." It wasn't until they discovered the human experimentation that it was like, "Oooh."

Catherine: Exactly. To me that speaks into―there's a reason why all of these real life experiments were performed on marginalized people.

Chrisha: Exactly, yeah.

Catherine: So the fact that it took that long for Mary and John to react, and it was only when it was humans. I mean, that's an echo of the fact that people weren't reacting because these people weren't considered fully human. I mean, when you get down to it, that is what Othering does. It creates a system where there are different levels of human or people are portrayed as less than human. And that makes it okay for you to do things to them that you would not do to other humans, people who are "really" human, you know? I think that that was a big part of it. And I don't think that it's a coincidence that Lata and Carlos were not there for any of this.

Chrisha: *emphatically* Yes.

Catherine: I don't think that it's a coincidence that it was the two white people who were in this main part of the episode regarding the plot of the week, and they didn't have their people there who are marginalized in 1970s culture to speak to them.

Chrisha: Yeah. To challenge them.  Right.

Catherine: To say like, "What is wrong with you?" *laughs*

Chrisha: Right! Yeah.

Catherine: And I really saw it as a critique of our own shortcomings and inability to see other points of view, and inability to step up and say "No," as white people. Like, that is our legacy. And it's something that we're just starting to come to grips with now. And a lot of people still aren't even close to there.

Chrisha: I was gonna say, some of us, some of us anyway.

Catherine: Yeah, like as white society, like, we're just dipping our toes into realizing how bad it's been. I think that that was part of what this episode was trying to speak to.

Chrisha: Yeah. Yeah. And I think going back to like a larger theme, we had Dean at the beginning saying how happy endings and huntings don't mix: how far you willing to go? And you know, of course, when I heard him say that I'm like, "All the way! Get your happy ending!" And then we get to this storyline and see how it resolves. And it's like, "Ooooh, not that far." Yeah, there are definitely limits. So.

Catherine:  Yes. *laughs* Yeah, and that's where I was caught up. That's why I didn't go to Dean and Cas, was because I was caught up in the storyline of the lengths that people will go to, to .... protect a white woman.

Chrisha: Yeah.

Catherine: And just went, "Oh, goodness."

*END OF CONTENT WARNING*

Chrisha: Well, and then try to frame it as love. And that's we were kind of just talking about in our last episode, I was talking about Samuel and how I just didn't really soften towards him in his big speech to Mary because again, it didn't feel like love to me, felt like very selfish. And so for Mary's speech at the end of this John saying:

*Voice clip from season 1 episode 10 of The Winchesters, “Suspicious Minds,” plays*
John: The things we do for love.
Mary: That’s not love.

Catherine: Yeah, that was the one moment in the episode where it was like, "Yes! Finally."

Chrisha: It was so shockingly blunt, I think, saying, "That's not love."

*Voice clip from season 1 episode 10 of The Winchesters, “Suspicious Minds,” plays*  
Mary: Jack was only thinking of himself. What he wanted. Didn't matter if it cost him his humanity to get it. That'll never be us. Right?

Chrisha: And I was like, that is dangerously close to inferring that John didn't really love Mary, at least in our Supernatural. Which I believe, and have always felt has been pretty accurate, that it was not about her. It was about him.

Catherine: And they've made a big deal about this being a love story, right? And we all kept going, "Really???" 

Chrisha: *laughs*

Catherine: "This is ... this is the magical love story that we're supposed to buy into?" Like, "What???" But now in the show, I think you're absolutely right. I think they're saying like, "Yeah, that wasn't love. That wasn't love." And I think that was pretty―pretty blunt. 

Chrisha: And she was wearing John's jacket as she said it. So this is like little cutesy romantic―I mean, they're burying bodies, but I mean, Supernatural can make burying bodies romantic, let's be honest. But like, she's wearing John's jacket, you know, so it's got that little vibe. And then she's like, "That's not love. That'll never be us." And I was like, "Oh, damn! All right. You know? Like, wow!"

Catherine: A man who was completely obsessed, and didn't know how to live without her, and made her into this perfect woman that never existed after she died?

Chrisha: And looked at that thing that they just experienced and said, "The things we do for love, huh?" I was like, "Ohhh, buddy!"

Catherine: That was problematic. You know, what it brought me back to was Season 14 Episode 6, "Optimism," which is the one where the witch brings back her boyfriend from the dead. And Jack goes on his first hunt with Dean. And at the end of it, Jack says: 

*Voice clip from Supernatural, Episode 6 of Season 14, plays*
Jack: So, now that Vance is in the grave he can't hurt anyone?
Dean: Yeah, silver stake through the heart. That ought to do the trick.
Jack: And ... that’s love?
Dean: *chuckles* Actually, love can get crazier than that. 

Catherine: *laughing* And that, like, always bothered me. Like, I know a lot of people have used it as a jumping off point for a funny commentary about how the first time that he met Cas he, like, stabbed him in the chest.

Chrisha: This is true. Yeah, that's an accurate thing. *chuckles*

Catherine: I mean, like, yes, I―I can go along with the humor of that. But the relationship that the witch had with the undead guy? That was not love. And it always bothered me that Dean let Jack sit there thinking that that deeply toxic relationship was love and love can get weirder than that. So I was glad that―cause immediately I was thinking back to that moment, and poor Jack, and how he was getting, like, the worst advice ever and what love looks like from Dean―

*both laugh*

Catherine: ―and then having Mary challenge it. I was like, "Oh! Oh!!!" I felt like it was speaking directly into that moment.

Chrisha: It was certainly, I think, speaking directly to everyone in this universe's attitudes towards what is and is not love. Because I think we have seen some really deeply toxic ones over the years.

Catherine: Absolutely.

Chrisha: So I really appreciated that very blunt statement of: "That. Is. Not. Love." Because I think ... I think this universe needed that.

Catherine: I think it really did, honestly. And I mean it's refreshing. And the fact that she pointed out that it was selfish: "That's not love; that's being selfish." I think John Winchester needed to hear that; I think, like, so many people in that universe need to hear that; I think we need to hear that as a society. Because, I mean, society still looks at horrifying stuff and calls it love. And that's a problem. That's like a really deep rooted problem that we have as a society that we cover all kinds of terrible stuff with the,  “Aw, well, you know, they were in love." 

Chrisha: *in faux-dreamy voice* “But I love him!” Yeah.

Catherine: Right, exactly. Exactly. So, did that kind of help with―what I shared about why the episode didn't work, because it was sort of intentional?

Chrisha: I think it spoke to why it was deeply uncomfortable. But I also just feel like it was cheesy, which is part of why the gravity of some of the things didn't land for me. Because I was so busy going, like, "What is that accent?" I couldn't figure out why they didn't pick up that he was clearly a sociopath right from the jump.

Catherine: Right. And my thoughts about that are that he immediately goes and lists his qualifications. He's a neurosurgeon. That's, like, the highest of medical knowhow and skills, right, is to be able to operate on the brain. And the central theme about who was running these kinds of terrible experiments in real life that kept coming back and back and back and back, was they were doctors. They were professors. They were agents of the government. So they were all authority figures. And in the 1970s, even though there was this counterculture movement, people still trusted doctors. People thought that scientists were smarter and better in every way than the average person. That had been ingrained in the culture for decades. And it was being challenged in the 1970s, but it was still a bedrock of culture, was to respect people who were doctors, professors, people who worked for the government, because they were authority figures. And so they must know better, right, than you or me. And, while I think it's important to recognize people's credentials, in terms of people have studied and learned a lot and know a lot, we always need to feel okay to question what people are doing if it feels wrong. But a lot of the times people didn't feel like they had that ability back in the day. There's a whole thing where it's like White Coat Syndrome, and people will just be like, “Yes, uh-huh Doctor, okay,” because they're afraid of challenging the person who's in this position of power. And so I think that that may be part of why they didn't challenge him, was because it was the 1970s, and because he starts off by listing his credentials as one of the highest positions of being a doctor that you possibly can be, right? So that's my thought about it. 

Chrisha: I get it. I think it's one of those things that made sense on paper. And, like, if we sit here and analyze it, it's like, "Oh, okay, I can make those connections." But, I was so busy trying to think through, like, "What is going on?" that it pulled me out. Because it wasn't presented in a way that I think made those connections particularly easy to make?

Catherine: Yeah, that's fair. 

Chrisha: So yeah, it's not about that it doesn't necessarily make sense. It's that I kind of feel like we had to work too hard to get there. And again, some of the other stuff just didn't quite land for me. I will say before we move on from some of this stuff, there were good parts, I think, about the John/Mary/Jack/Hobbes/whatever storyline. Things that hit me in a positive way. The fact that Mary is applying to colleges between hunts? I mean, they're hunting I feel like non-stop? So she would have had to finish high school somewhere in there? And then also apply to college, just while they're doing all this other stuff. Which I was like, "Wow!" 

Catherine: *Excited voice* Yes! I was like, "When did she have time to finish high school?" 'Cause last time that she spoke about this, she did not have her high school degree, which you have to have completed before you can apply for college. So I was like, "Wow, Mary's kicking it in the butt! Look at her go!!!"

Chrisha: Mmhmm. I mean, she could have done the GED, but even that you tend to have to schedule it, go to it, potentially study for it. So, yeah. 

Catherine: One of the other things that I thought was great was that John got his ass kicked again.

*both laugh*

Chrisha: Always. It's always a thrill. Mmhmm.

Catherine: *chuckling* That was fun.

Chrisha: She had to save him! I mean, he was completely free. And she had to get herself free. I guess maybe he helped? I forget. And [she had to] manage it solo, because he could not.

Catherine: Nope. *snort-chuckles*

Chrisha: Bless his heart. But she really was like, "John's gonna beat him!" when she was tied to the table talking to what's-his-name. Like, "No, he's gonna kick his ass!" And I'm like, "Aww, that's bluster, right? You don't really think that, do you?"

*both cackle*

*Voice clip from season 1 episode 10 of The Winchesters, “Suspicious Minds,” plays* Mary: I know John's gonna beat its ass.
Porter Hobbes: Well now, I wouldn't be so sure about that.
John: *getting his ass kicked* That was my spleen! *groans and pants in pain*

Catherine: It was cute. She ... she really believes in that guy. *snickering* As she figures it all out again.

Chrisha: Mmhmm. You know, the other thing they did is―they did it again, where they gave Hobbes a really good line. And I was mad, but, like, saying:

*Voice clip from season 1 episode 10 of The Winchesters, “Suspicious Minds,” plays* Porter Hobbes: There’s no world worth saving without her in it. 

Chrisha: Like, in a different context that could be, like, a really lovely romantic line. It just happens to be done by a sociopath trying to kill everybody. *laughs* But, like, I could totally see Dean saying something like that, or one of our folks saying something like that. 

Catherine: Didn't Mary actually say something really similar to that at the end of the scene with the vampires, where she was like:

*Voice clip from season 1 episode 10 of The Winchesters, “Suspicious Minds,” plays*  Mary: And I don't mind getting out of the moment, thinking about the future. As long as I know you're in the picture.

Catherine: Shall we talk a little bit about Lata and Carlos and their journey? Because I found it was quite an amazing and empowering journey that they went on. 

Chrisha: Yes. I love the two of them. I would watch just the two of them forever.

Catherine: Mmhmm! Same.

Chrisha: Like, I would watch it forever. There doesn't even need to be a plot. They can just bicker. It's fine! *chuckles* Like, I love their dynamic so much.

Catherine: They're wonderful. I think it may be one of the best platonic male/female friendships that I've seen. I'm trying to think about others, and the only other one that I can think of that comes close is Warehouse 13. And then they made it romantic. And I was like, "Gosh, darn it!"

*both chuckle*

Chrisha: Well, it definitely has, I feel like, Dean-Charlie kind of vibes to it.

Catherine: Yes.

Chrisha: That was one of my favorite relationships in all of Supernatural. I feel like it would have gotten to this kind of level, Dean and Charlie, if they had gotten more time together. *sarcastically* Not that I'm at all still bitter about that. 

Catherine: Ugh. I know. 

Chrisha: So,  yeah, I just I absolutely adore their dynamic.

Catherine: Me too. They're wonderful together. I also love that we're getting to hear all about their relationships, and how they're figuring stuff out with the people that they're interested in and are kind-of with. Do you want to talk a little bit about that before we get into the main plot-y parts? 'Cause realizing that Lata  was having a little flirty-flirt time with Tony when she's dreaming was like, so cute! *laughing* And romantic!

Chrisha: It was a little more than flirty flirt. 

Catherine: *giggling* I think so too. 

Chrisha: “You dirty dozing tramp,” is potentially one of the best lines I've ever heard. "Oh, I'll bet he's educating you!"

*both cackle*

Chrisha: And she's like, "It's ... it's ... it's not like that. Mostly."

Catherine: *overlapping* "Mostly."

*Voice clip from season 1 episode 10 of The Winchesters, “Suspicious Minds,” plays* Carlos: Oh, you dirty dozing tramp. Have you been seeing him in your dreams?
Lata: Yes, but it's not what you think. Mostly not.

Chrisha: La-ta!

*laughter continues from both*

Chrisha: She is mixing magical research with sex. I just love her. Like, I just―

Catherine: *cackles*

Chrisha: ―a little bit of scientific research, a little bit of something-something. It's just so perfect. I just. Ahhhhh. 

Catherine: They’re the cutest, and I love that they've continued a relationship, and I love that it's gone beyond writing letters to each other.

Chrisha: It certainly seems to have done, yes! 

Catherine: I mean, like, what a wonderful bonus to having a Djinn boyfriend. *giggling* You don't have to be like close to each other to still see each other.

Chrisha: Long distance in the seventies becomes much easier. Yeah. 

Catherine: It does. Yeah. *laughs*

Chrisha: Oh my gosh. It's not like she volunteered this information, necessarily. It was relevant to the case. But once it was out there, she's like, "Yeah. I mean, sure. Absolutely!" You know, just like absolutely owning it. Giving the most amazing smiles at Carlos, who's just absolutely losing his mind over this, understandably. Like, "Spill! Spill! Spill! Tell me everything. Oh my God!!!" Meanwhile, we have Carlos, who had this beautiful epic kiss with Anton. Who clearly has so many feelings. He is gone for Anton and is absolutely panicking. So first he was panicking because he was attracted, and now he is panicking because he has really deep feelings and is seeing his cute little dimpled face in pancakes, and― 

Catherine: *snickers* That was the funniest line.

Chrisha: ―he is legitimately pining at this point for a guy that he has. So, absolutely terrified of his feelings here. And he wants to run. He wants to shut down, and run. But over the course of the episode, he recognizes that that's not the best option.

Catherine: I love the line where he says that they're taking things slow. And she's like, "Oh, that's―that's good!" Because it sounds like he's very much a hot and passionate fling, and it's done, and he moves on. Right? And he's like: 

*Voice clip from season 1 episode 10 of The Winchesters, “Suspicious Minds,” plays* Carlos: Taking things slow and seeing faces in pancakes is for stupid, boring people who don't have the fate of the world on their excellently-proportioned shoulders.

Chrisha: *chuckles*

Catherine: That's my favorite line of the whole―

Chrisha: *humorously* It’s. Yeah. Mmhmm.

Catherine: ―episode. 

Chrisha: Yeah. I also just need to recognize and note: Lata―in that conversation by the van, you know, where they're just sort of sitting there―is multitasking, in that she is emotionally, I don't know if I want to say, supporting Carlos? She's emotionally smacking Carlos, I would say. And yet is also figuring out the case while doing it. She does both at the same time. You know―

Catherine: She's amazing.

Chrisha: ―she's just like, "No. You're an idiot. Stop. Also, I figured out our next step."

Catherine: Yes!

*both laugh*

Chrisha: Like, absolutely astonishing.

Catherine: Yes, They independently got so much work done in this episode. 

Chrisha: Seriously. 

Catherine: It was amazing. I also loved the contrast that was going on. In the John and Mary part of the story, it's all about institutions and individuals harming people and making people victims, basically. And in Lata and Carlos’s part, it's all about healing victims from their trauma. That's a huge contrast between those two different storylines. And that's another thing that I think is really important, in that it's the two characters who are not white who are reaching out to the people who are usually forgotten in these stories.

Chrisha: Yeah, absolutely. 

Catherine: I mean, I thought that Roxy was dead. *laughs* And they tracked her down, and found her, and helped her. And so many times in Supernatural and in this story, you have all of these victims who are left behind. And no, they're taken to the hospital, or they're left for dead, depending on the situation. And we never hear about them getting help. The heroes move on, right? 'Cause they've got bigger fish to fry. And that's always bothered me, especially after they started just the staking all of the demon-possessed people and killing them midway through Supernatural instead of exorcising them. *laughs* I was just like, "You're killing all of these people! What are you doing???"

Chrisha: Yeah, and I do think that that was another piece of the puzzle here. I mean, definitely what you're talking about: victimizing people, and then helping them, versus helping people heal. But there was also some pretty deep commentary, I would say, on just the idea of vessels and consent. Because nobody was giving consent to be a vessel in any of this. Not Mary; not Roxy. It's one of the things that I think was never really addressed in Supernatural―at least, not much: the emotional impact of being possessed. I think that Meg talked about it once when we got Ghost!Meg. As one of the seals being broken, she came back and it was, like, actual Meg versus Demon!Meg. Talking about that experience. But for the most part, it was just like, "Eh, whatever!" And it was the fandom really talking about consent and consent violations.

Catherine: That's right.

Chrisha: And so to have it being addressed here as, "This is what happens." Can you imagine the horror of being a vessel, especially without consent? I mean, even with consent, it's like―I don't think Jimmy knew what he was signing up for.

Catherine: No, he didn't. He talked about how he wouldn't have said yes if he knew what was going to happen. I mean, he talked about it being, like, chained to a comet, the experience. Like, it was not a pleasant experience for him. And Castiel is a pretty good guy.

Chrisha: Right.

Catherine: So, even with consent...

Chrisha: Yeah, so I thought that was an interesting thing for them to broach, given it being such a prevalent―I mean, angels and demons, right? That's it. That's the show, is how Sam and Dean deal with angels and demons. And there was no, "Ah, this is a way to be a vessel that's, like, good." It was all just like, "This is awful." And this is what happens. This is what the aftermath looks like.

Catherine: The only time that we saw a true relationship was very briefly with the angel Benjamin, who got killed after they were playing video games. That was the one with Ishim―

Chrisha: Michael and Adam, too.

Catherine: *acknowledges* Michael and Adam was―yeah, was the other one. 

Chrisha: It's rare. 

Catherine: It's very, very rare. And even with Michael and Adam, like, Michael would still suppress Adam when he got annoyed or frustrated. 

Chrisha: Well, and those were both angel situations, which means consent had to be given.

Catherine: Right. Right.

Chrisha: So in terms of demons, the only one I can remember is the guy that was possessed and ended up actually being a serial killer himself. He just, like, enjoyed the ride with the demon. Then tried to get him back. And I don't―I think we can agree: not the healthiest example.

Catherine: No, not―

Chrisha: Not―not in the win column in terms of thinking about... *laughs*

Catherine: Nope.

*both laugh*

Chrisha: Yeah. Obviously Mary did not become a vessel, but we got to sit with the idea of it: of like, how twisted and sick that is. And with Roxy it was very visceral. Like, we watched it happen, basically―in her memories, her re-experiencing it, and like, the feelings. And it was wow. Like, wow.

Catherine: Yeah. Yeah.

*Voice clip from season 1 episode 10 of The Winchesters, “Suspicious Minds,” plays* Roxy: *screams in absolute terror* *gasps hysterically* I feel it… on me. It’s burrowing inside. *screams again in pain* *whispers* It’s here. I―It’s taking my arms. My body. My voice. I try to s―scream but I’m not here anymore. *shaking breath* I’m not anywhere. *pants and whimpers*

Catherine:  I know that you are familiar with that actress. I don't know her. And she really knocked that out of the park. Like, you felt like you were living it with her.

Chrisha: It was terrifying. 

Catherine: It was. It really was. They keep addressing legacy issues and problems from Supernatural. And so I think the fact that you bring up that this is a fandom conversation that has happened more than a conversation on the show? And that now, this show has had that conversation and made us think about it as an audience? I think that's, again, one of the many ways that they're kind of looking at Supernatural and saying, "Okay, how can we be better?" So I was glad that they did that work in this episode, for sure.

Chrisha: Mmhmm. I did want to just touch on what we learned around the Big Bad.

Catherine: Right. Yes.

Chrisha: So we know that the Akrida attacked 15 years ago. That was the last big attack.

Catherine: Yes. And if we're going to try to place it in the original Supernatural timeline: They attacked in 1957, and Abbadon wiped out the Men of Letters in 1958. 

Chrisha: Ohhhhh, that's interesting.

Catherine:  Mmm. I looked that one up. 

Chrisha: Yeah. So if we are taking Hobbes, or Jack―I don't know what to call him―Mr. Sheffield. If we're taking his―

*both laugh* 

Catherine: I think we can just call him Jack. That's fine.

Chrisha: If we are using him as a semi-reliable narrator, at least in terms of Men of Letters history, then they did defeat the Akrida 15 years ago, but there were heavy casualties. But some of the Akrida stayed hidden, which would include the Queen. Which then makes a little bit better sense as to why she's buried and why they've been looking for her.

Catherine: Mmhmm. I found that odd still, because she wasn't just buried. She was, like, locked away.

Chrisha: Yeah.

Catherine: I don't understand how that could have happened independently of somebody trying to keep her away from the rest of the hive. So I feel like we're missing some details there that may be important later on. 

Chrisha: Yeah, like, did they pack her away for safekeeping? But even if they had, wouldn't they know where she is?

Catherine: Exactly.

Chrisha: It's just very―it, yeah, I feel like we're still figuring things out there.

Catherine: Yes.

Chrisha: Okay. So Jack said:

*Voice clip from season 1 episode 10 of The Winchesters, “Suspicious Minds,” plays* Porter Hobbes: They couldn’t touch me, you see, as I was warded same as y'all. So ... so they came after my Dorothea. Left her in a coma. 

Chrisha: And I'm like, having the tattoo doesn't mean they can't hit you over the head with a crowbar, does it? So it was another one of those things that I was like, "Wait, what?" 

*both laugh*

Catherine: Yeah. I think the idea was that they wanted to take over his mind and have him work as an agent for them. And they couldn't, so they were like, "Well, we'll just take out his wife and punish him for not being our tool," I guess.

Chrisha: But like, why not just kill him?

Catherine: I know.

Chrisha: Like, they could still pick up a gun and shoot him. I don't know.

Catherine: *agreeing* I know. I know. Yeah.

Chrisha: Just yeah, there's a lot of details in this one that I was just like, "What?" And I mean, we can chalk it up to him just being nuts, basically. Like, he's not―

Catherine: Not a reliable narrator? *chuckles*

Chrisha: No! He is not reliable, I don't think, in―in much. So he was kicked out of the Men of Letters because of Henry. Because Henry turned him in, which lines up pretty well, I think, with what we knew of Supernatural’s Henry as being very ethical. You know?

Catherine: Yes. Even though he didn't stop him when he was lobotomizing monsters. 

Chrisha: *agreeing* Again with that! Yeah.

Catherine: Yeah. Yeah. So that kind of―again, I feel like it complicates that legacy. Right?

Chrisha: Well, yeah. It's like, he was a rule follower.

Catherine: Yes.

Chrisha: Which is very different than being fully ethical. So you're right to challenge that.

Catherine: Mmm. I think rule follower is a good description. Yes. Because there is a difference. I think people don't think about that often enough.

Chrisha: Yeah. 100%.

Catherine: There is a difference between being ethical and just following the rules.

Chrisha: Yeah, I thought it was really interesting, too, that they framed Dorothea, his wife, as basically being a mechanic like Millie.

Catherine: Yes. Yes. 

Chrisha: Why did they do that? What is that about? I still don’t know. But it seemed important.

Catherine: It did. I feel like it was sort of meant to show that we shouldn't stereotype women by their looks, I guess? Because she looked very prim and proper, just like the woman who basically killed her―knocked her out and gave her brain damage. You can look a certain way and be completely unexpected I guess was what I took out of that. They were both unexpected in different ways.

Chrisha: It was weird to me that they specifically went with mechanic. They could have done anything. But they went with what Millie does. So, I still don't quite know what to do with that. I don't feel like that ever fully paid off. But maybe it is just that was the easiest thing to go with. I don't know. So in terms of the Akrida, going back to what we know of them, Carlos and Lata found the Queen's location:

*Voice clip from season 1 episode 10 of The Winchesters, “Suspicious Minds,” plays* Carlos: Roxy was right. This is it. We found the Akrida Queen.

Chrisha: So that also moved forward the story. And again, like we said, their whole goal right now is to flush Dean out, which is fascinating to me. And then they decided to use John's anger against him, which I also found really fascinating.

Catherine: Yeah, that was the part of the story that I found the least plausible. *chuckles* I guess the first thing that I need to get out of the way regarding the Akrida, is the fact that ranch dressing goes with everything, including human corpses, apparently:

*Voice clip from season 1 episode 10 of The Winchesters, “Suspicious Minds,” plays* Akrida : But their ranch dressing. Remind me to slather liberally over their corpses during invasion times. 

Chrisha: *cackles* That's a very Leviathan thing. They wanted to put cheese on everything.

*Voice clip from season 7 episode 3 of Supernatural, “The Girl Next Door,” plays* Leviathan: Plain old people taste fine, but everything is better with cheese.

Catherine: *laughs*

Chrisha: So that was some Purgatory stuff right there, I think. 

Catherine: Yeah, that's a good crossover moment, isn't it? And we've been talking about how there seem to be these parallels between the Akrida and the Leviathan from Supernatural. What does that mean? Anyway, that is―but that is―I'd forgotten about slathering everything in cheese. 

*both chuckle*

Catherine: So Kyle: I also have the note about using John's history of anger against him. But trying to frame John for Kyle's murder is just ... I don't think it's going to fly. Mainly because Betty's never going to believe that John would murder someone, and she's not going to work against John. So this is going to turn her against the Akrida agenda, which they seemed to hook her into just last episode. I felt like it was a weird move. And I know she's just an officer, and she's not the sheriff or anything. So she can't make final calls. But it just seemed like she's going to be suspicious because he wouldn't have mentioned John menacing him. Like that didn't seem to be a thing that he was talking about with her. And so all of a sudden, John is not only menacing him but murdering him. And I was like, "John, why―" Like, okay, first of all, I wanted to know where the knife came from. Was it John's knife?"

Chrisha: Yeah. Mmhm.

Catherine: Okay. So it would have had his fingerprints on it already. I don't know. I just―I felt like it was kind of a lame plot on the part of Akrida!Kyle. What did you think? 

Chrisha: Well, I think at the time, it was certainly weird. Because it was, "Now we're going into a law enforcement kind of system"? You know, if we're talking about it from a systems perspective, right, institutional perspective―which they have done. They have worked through a lot of institutions, I feel like, throughout the course of this show.

Catherine: Mmm, they have.

Chrisha: It was definitely like, "Why let human law enforcement be the system that you― Like, why? You're multiverse-level bugs." It just seemed a strange thing to rely on. We knew because we were reminded in this episode that they have cops―or at least they had the one, you know? So they are infiltrating systems. So it’s like, I mean, "Okay." And then even someone like Betty, who they are not taking over, they are really working to frame John and Mary in a negative light; to question loyalties. But it does seem overly complicated. Like, why?

Catherine: It does!

Chrisha: But then again, we still don't know what Dean's deal is. So like, maybe there's something about him that they feel like this is the way to get him back out in the open. I don't know. Because it is a human system. So maybe Dean would ... I don't know. I just don't know.

Catherine: When Kyle was like, "We're gonna spill a little blood," I thought they were going to take on John and, like, hospitalize him or something like that, you know? I mean, they don't know the relationship between Dean and John. But if he founded this group, and he found them important enough to get them together, don't they think that severely hurting one of them would maybe draw him out? I don't know. I don't understand how this is going to draw Dean out in a way that just hurting one of them wouldn't. You know what I mean? 

Chrisha: Well, I think probably because there's a problem that now needs to be solved; that can be solved. Like, if someone is just hurt, it's just waiting for them to heal. But there wouldn't be anything Dean could necessarily do.

Catherine: Okay.

Chrisha: That's the only thing I can think. It's a turn that I was not expecting, certainly. And I'm just sort of like, "Okay. Well, we'll see what happens there." There were some parallels with Roxy that I do want to sit with a little bit. And some of them are parallels, and some of them are just like, "Hmmm," kind of things.

Catherine: Okay.

Chrisha: First of all, in both storylines, we are back to heavy queer-themed echoes. 

Catherine: Yeah, that's right. 'Cause she has a girlfriend.

Chrisha: So Roxy has a girlfriend―

Catherine: Yeah. And it was no big deal. She just, like, said it.

Chrisha: Yeah! We're just tripping over queer people at this point in The Winchesters. It's lovely. *laughs*

Catherine: It is!

Chrisha: With the Jack/Mary storyline, we got the Golem. And we were introduced to golems in the Aaron Bass episode, which is the "gay thing" episode, which is the flirting, tripping over furniture episode for Dean― 

Catherine: Ohhhhh yeah, it was! Yes, it is!  

Chrisha: Right? So like, that's one of the most iconic *chuckles* queer episodes―

Catherine: I know!

Chrisha: ―from Supernatural. I was just like, "Really?"

Catherine: It was a gay thing!

Chrisha: "―we’re doing the gay thing. Okay! Okay, okay. Uh―" 

*both laugh*

Chrisha: And so all you have to do is say "Golem," and we're all the way down that rabbit hole, right? Like, it's just―or at least, I was―all the way to ... 'Cause we had just put the clip in like, two episodes ago, of―

Catherine: We did.

Chrisha: ―Dean tripping over furniture. It's iconic. And then with Roxy, not only do we have her talking about her girlfriend―and of course we have Carlos talking about Anton―but the way that she was talking about being possessed by the Akrida was reminiscent of The Empty for me, too.

Catherine: *surprised* Oh, okay. Tell me more. 

Chrisha: Well, she's reliving her worst memories, which is what we know The Empty does. And she said, "I'm not here anymore. I'm not anywhere."

Catherine: *getting it* Ohhhhhhh.

Chrisha: And so I just couldn't help but think about the black goo. You know? Coming to take Cas. It just felt― 

Catherine: Yeah, because the―The Empty is supposed to be nothingness. There's nothing there. It's a void, you know?

*Voice clip from Season 13, Episode 4 of Supernatural, "The Big Empty," plays*
Empty!Cas: Before God and Amara, creation, destruction, Heaven, Hell, your precious little Earth, what was there?
Cas: Nothing.
Empty!Cas: Yes, that's right: nothing. Nothing but empty. And you are soaking in it.

Catherine: Until we hear from Ruby, who's like, "Why dp they call The Empty? It's full." So.

Chrisha: Well, and that was interesting in and of itself too. And another reason that The Empty was kind of on my mind is because there was supposed to be this two-step process, right, of reliving memories―for Roxy―and then erasing them. And she went through reliving them and then made the decision that she didn't want to forget. She wanted to hold on to those negative memories, because she wanted to fight. And so again, thinking about Dean and the way that he tends to shut down and avoid and―I don't know, it's just ... It's all so tangled? But just felt like funhouse mirror stuff again. 

Catherine: Yeah, 'cause there's that whole episode where Dean loses his memories and has to fight to get them back―

Chrisha: Even though they're painful, yeah 

Catherine: Yeah, he still wants them. And there's that poignancy, because when he loses his memory, he becomes that kind of carefree guy that we knew from seasons one and two―who wasn't really carefree but acted like he was. We see this lighter side of Dean where he isn't carrying everything that he's carried. But ultimately what makes him him is his experiences. So he wants all of that back. He needs all of that back. The Roxy storyline, and reclaiming your autonomy after trauma, was very, very powerful. Choosing to hold on to things so that you can heal, rather than forgetting things so that you don't have to live with the consequences. And having that choice and making that choice I think was incredibly powerful and brave. 

*Voice clip from season 1 episode 10 of The Winchesters, “Suspicious Minds,” plays* Roxy: I don't want you to make me forget.
Carlos: Wait. You ... you don't want to erase this hellish ordeal from your brain?
Roxy: You guys have a plan to take down these Akrida bastards, right?
Carlos: They're sure as dead.
Lata: *simultaneously* We’re gonna try.
Roxy: Then I want to remember. I want to remember that I helped you. I want to know that my memories helped knock these bugs back to wherever the hell they're from. 

Catherine: I really loved the journey of her character, as we went through it all: From somebody who is, like, completely debilitated, to someone who was pulling herself together, standing on her own two feet, and saying, "I want to remember that I helped you. That I helped this world." I thought that was really powerful. 

Chrisha: Yeah, absolutely. And I think we've talked about this in the past: the difference between PTSD, post-traumatic stress disorder, and post-traumatic growth. So PTSD is having experienced a trauma that leaves a significant impact that is really, really difficult to cope with and heal from. It leaves an emotional mark. And post-traumatic growth is this idea that we can heal from trauma stronger than we were before. So it's kind of every superhero origin story. A superhero experiences a trauma, and then it's not that the pain of that goes away. It's not that the difficulty of that goes away. But it's finding a way to find meaning in the traumatic experience, right? And so for Roxy, I feel like that's what she did here. She was able to look at what she went through and say, "Okay, that was horrible." There's going to be some lingering impact, I'm sure for her, of course. But to say, "I'm going to find healing. And recognizing that the pain that I've gone through is going to help fight to stop this from happening to anyone else. You know, to take them down." And there's a real empowerment in that.

Catherine: Yeah. And I loved the way that this episode showed that that kind of healing from trauma happens within community. She wasn't able to do the healing on her own. She needed help. Carlos and Lata provided that help, both in terms of the practical part of doing the spell, doing the magic, having her actually be able to remember; but also in terms of the emotional support that they offered her. After she says that really awful, visceral reliving of losing herself, Lata says to Roxy, as she's taking her hands:

*Voice clip from season 1 episode 10 of The Winchesters, “Suspicious Minds,” plays* Lata: Do you feel that? Yeah? Then you are right here. You are not trapped in your memories. You are choosing to be brave and to fight back.

Catherine: And having that kind of feedback in the face of that awful, awful memory, allows Roxy to be able to continue to push forward. It grounds her in the reality of the now through that physical touch, but also those words of support, and gives her the courage that she needs to keep going. And after it's over, Carlos is cute and says:

*Voice clip from season 1 episode 10 of The Winchesters, “Suspicious Minds,” plays* Carlos: In the meantime, could I offer you some of my come-down tea? I've got all the fixings in my van.

Catherine: *chuckles* But he's being very kind-of Carlos and breezy. I think he's very breezy kind of character a lot of the time. But then he sees her expression, and he looks at her. And his face becomes very serious, and he's like:

*Voice clip from season 1 episode 10 of The Winchesters, “Suspicious Minds,” plays* Carlos: Hey, it's gonna be okay.

Catherine: And so she gets that emotional support and emotional reassurance from both of them over the course of the journey―as well as the practical support, which I love. Because we do heal in community. We do need to be able to talk about our trauma with safe people and be able to let it kind-of outside of ourselves, I feel, in order to be able to really begin to do that healing work. You know, as somebody who has had PTSD and different kinds of trauma, I feel like I stayed stuck until I started really talking about it. And when I was able to start talking about it with a therapist, and with the people in my life, that was when I was able to start moving forward and heal. And it's an ongoing journey. So. But it's―it's a journey, it's happening, you know what I mean?

Chrisha: Yeah. And I mean, I think―without getting too therapist-y―I do think that what we watched Roxy go through is a really, really good and important example of the power of therapy. Like, obviously, this is a fictionalized version of this. But ultimately what she did, she had been avoiding, right? Because her memories were fragmented, and she couldn't piece them together. And so everything was very disjointed. And so she was just hiding from it. And once she was able to have someone safe to sit with her, and to start piecing it together, to talk through it, understand what happened to her, to make those connections, that's when she was able to kind of shift her thinking from feeling like a victim to finding her power again. And I think that that, in many ways, is what therapy does for folks. It helps to sit down and start talking things through, and making those connections, and piecing it together. To have this sort of fully formed, much clearer picture of what actually happened, versus the chaotic fragments that trauma often leaves us with, that we can't quite piece together. So―

Catherine. Absolutely. Yeah.

Chrisha: ―it's really powerful, a really powerful scene that I just thought was amazing. 

Catherine: Yeah, they keep having those. These really relevant .... I mean we we talked about it before, a lot, in our Season 15 Supernatural podcast. But the power of fiction, particularly things like scifi and fantasy, is they're able to remove things enough from our own reality that you can come at things from a different angle and see them often more clearly than you can through just everyday nonfiction.

Chrisha: Mmhmm. A hundred percent.

Catherine: And so I think that's been happening a lot on the show, is this kind of―it's removed enough, and now if you see it from a different angle. It brings clarity about things in our own lives that are real and important. I think this show has been doing it with a lot of intention, which I appreciate very much. I also wanted to mention that I think it was really beautiful that we got to see Lata merging a traditional part of her culture, which is doing henna work, with Djinn magic.

*Voice clip from season 1 episode 10 of The Winchesters. “Suspicious Minds.” plays* Lata: He's been using his knowledge as a Djinn to teach me a technique to induce a type of meditative state.
Carlos: *suggestively* What do you mean meditative state?
Lata: *laughs* Like magical hypnosis, allowing a person to access their buried memories. It works in two parts. First, we excavate Roxy's memories. Then two, we erase them. Roxy: Wiped down my arms, like you asked. So, before I chicken out, let's do this.
Lata: Take a breath, deep and slow. *magical sound effects* Okay. I want you to think back, Roxy, all the way to when your memories first became fractured.

Catherine: Henna is used within Indian society often to mark special events. And it's one of those cultural appropriation things that has become really common, I think, in North America. And I have been henna'd outside of that kind of cultural celebration. And now I wish that I hadn't been. But my friend Seema, her family is from India, and I got to be part of her wedding and go through the traditional henna experience, which is very communal. Everybody gets together. The bride gets the most beautiful henna work all over her arms and feet, and it's just really beautiful. So I really loved that we got to see that expression of Lata’s culture. And I loved that she melded it with a Djinn tradition. It was really cool when it all flashed blue. And it was the magic at work. Part of what is cool about that, I should say clearly, is that in the Djinn tradition, within Supernatural, they have almost like tattoos all over their bodies that will glow blue when they're using their magic. And so this was kind of a merging of those two different kinds of art, basically, in one thing working together. I thought it was really, really cool. And I just needed to go *excited* whoo, about that moment. 

Chrisha: Yeah, absolutely. And the art itself was just beautiful, too.

Catherine: It was.

Chrisha: I was trying to look through to see if there was anything similar to that in Supernatural, because the golem lore was the same, so far as I understood. But I was looking for memory-type things and, you know, there's African dream root, but that's more dreams. And so there really wasn't memory modification in Supernatural was primarily angels and demons kind of a deal. 

Catherine: Yeah, memory wipes. 

Chrisha: But I mean, we had The Empty. It's another echo there, because The Empty went through Cas' memories when he was there the first time. But yeah, for the most part, angels, demons, and the occasional witch are really the ones that did memory work. Nothing like this. So another interesting either lost knowledge or AU knowledge.

Catherine: That's right. And that's a good point. There have been more things that have crossed over in the last couple of weeks, with a lot of the vampire stuff being the same, with one big difference, kind of thing. The golem stuff being identical, really. But this is quite different from the djinn. And the memory work is quite different from anything. Is there anything else that you wanted to talk about? In terms of overall stuff?

Chrisha: No. I have two little weird things to tack on here at the end. I don't know what to do with them. They're just, like, things to put a pin in, I guess. Okay. The first is that the picture that we have of Dean from this week is from...

Catherine: Oh, yeah. Season 8 Episode 5, "Blood Brother."

Chrisha: Thank you. Yes, it's a deleted scene. Thank you also to Twitter and Discord for being amazing, 'cause I could not place it! I was like, "I know what it is, and I can't find it!" If you look closely, he's holding the cooler that has the blood in it that he was bringing to Benny.

Catherine: That's what he was holding! I couldn't figure it out. *laughs* 

Chrisha: Yep. So once I placed it, I was like, "Ahh!" 'cause I knew he was holding something. So does that mean anything? I don't know. We keep going Purgatory, it feels like, so... I don't know!

Catherine: We do. Because at first I thought it was the Purgatory jacket, which he wore in the promo for The Winchesters. And then in the opening and closing scenes of the first episode, he wore that Purgatory jacket. But it's not that one. But then it's a jacket that he wears when he's hanging out with the guy from Purgatory. So. *laughs* And they look very, very similar, the jackets. So I was just like, "Of all the stills in all the―"

Chrisha: *laughs* Uh-huh!

Catherine: "Why that one?"

Chrisha: Yep, yep, yep. Yep. And I am assuming that we are not supposed to know that that's from Supernatural. I'm assuming we're supposed to believe that this is a more current thing. But it looks like he's going into some kind of facility with barbed wire and stuff?

Catherine: Yeah. Breaking into somewhere he shouldn't be. 

Chrisha: Yeah, it says, "Do not enter," very clearly on the sign, which is like Dean in a nutshell for sure. But what is he doing? Has he been there this whole time? Like, is he following them around? Is Dean truly just off screen in all of these episodes? 'Cause that's a lovely thought. I don't know. Interesting. The plot thickens. 

Catherine: Yeah, I mean, definitely. He's on the Akrida radar, so he's around.

Chrisha: Yep. And they've got pictures of him, too. So ... interesting. 

Catherine: They've got surveillance photos. It seems like he's probably pretty close, because the center of operations seems to be in Lawrence, Kansas.

Chrisha: I have one more thing. It's like another little tag on thing that's just weird and I don't know what to do with, but I have to acknowledge that it's there is that: you know that very flashy peacock jacket that Loki was wearing in the Loki episode? And in Roxy's room, the curtains―and there's a bedspread on the other bed―that are also that same fabric.

Catherine: Oh, really?

Chrisha: Mmhmm.

Catherine: Ohhhh. 

Chrisha: Which is like, "Did they just have extra?" But it's, like, super blue and green, and also just very blunt. Like, *laughs* it's very―like―

Catherine: It’s very loud.

Chrisha: It's very loud. That's the word. Yes. So I think that's―someone in the Discord picked up on in the first watch. And I was like, "WUUUT?" Like, squinting at my TV, like, "What??" And then I had to go back and look. But yeah it's definitely―it's the ... What do you call the thing that's not the curtains but is around the top?

Catherine: Oh, like the sham? Is that what it is?

Chrisha: I don't know.

Catherine: The curtain sham? I don't―yeah.

Chrisha: Clearly we are not a cultured people, 'cause we―

*both laugh*

Chrisha: The thing .... that goes on the thing.

*both cackle*

Chrisha: I don't curtain, people. It's not in my skill set. 

*both continue to laugh* 

Catherine: Me neither. I still have, like, slatted blind things. Ummm *chuckles*. Okay, okay. Well, that's good to know.

Chrisha: Yeah, weird. But yeah, we can transition to the music―which was surprisingly light in this episode as well.

Catherine: It was. But I guess with the Loki episode they had, like, so much music in there? And we missed a couple of ones. Someday we'll go back and look at it.

Chrisha: *surprised* Oh! Okay.

Catherine: We missed "Little Angel," by Marcel Riesco and "1000 Watt Workout," by John Moran in that trickster episode, "Hang On To Your Life." So there was one song in the background during the Akrida meeting, but my Soundhound couldn't pick it up. I couldn't hear any lyrics, and there's nothing online anywhere. So I don't think it's super important. So there was literally no music in this episode. The only music that we have is that episode title, which is "Suspicious Minds," which is after a song by Elvis Presley. And it's quite famous. I knew it when I listened to it, which, I mean, I'm not an Elvis person. But it's another song about love that's not healthy. *laughs* And we keep getting songs that are about unhealthy love, unhealthy relationship dynamics, the end of relationships. We keep getting these songs that are all about, like, stuff not being good, when we're in the middle of a story about burgeoning love.

Chrisha: Yeah, about John and Mary Winchester, so― *laughs* 

Catherine: Well, that's the thing! I mean, they just called it out in this episode.

Chrisha: They really did, didn't they? They just went right on it.

Catherine: I mean, that's not love. And John's looking at it and thinking it is. And Mary has to be like, "Uhhh, no." And that's a problem. That's a really big problem. So I think that this is commentary on the fact that, at least in our version of Supernatural, there was definitely a very unhealthy dynamic in their relationship, which we see glimpses of, after a fashion, through the various flashbacks that we have over the years. And John is not a very healthy person in this version of Supernatural ―in The Winchesters. So I think, you know, we just get commentary after commentary after commentary. And this song, this episode title ... Before, with U.S Stamps with "Pull the Wool" and Free with "All Right Now," it was about being tricked into love. This song is all about being trapped in love. So the refrain is:

*Clip of the song ‘Suspicious Minds’ by Elvis Presley plays*
We're caught in a trap / I can't walk out / Because I love you too much, Baby

Catherine: That's ... I mean, that's― *laughs* That's, that's not some healthy love there. 

Chrisha: Well, no, but it also―I mean, two layers to that. One is that we were told in Supernatural that John and Mary were trapped, that they were forced together, that it was not freewill. It was not their choice.

Catherine: Right.

Chrisha: And also thinking about John, I guess, specifically in The Winchesters: His example of love, which is seen as this, I don't know, almost like this grand love story is his parents, who we're finding more and more their relationship was deeply dysfunctional and unhealthy. But that was the example that he had.

Catherine: Right. So those two different levels, we keep coming back to that: of the God level with them being tricked into love, or trapped in love. And as you say, yeah, John's examples of love have been pretty unhealthy. So, not good. And I mean, like, Dorothea was literally trapped in her body because Jack wouldn't let her go.

*Voice clip from season 1 episode 10 of The Winchesters, “Suspicious Minds,” plays*
Porter Hobbes: The doctors wanted to take her off life support. I brought her home. Cast a spell on her to keep her in this suspended state. 

Chrisha: That was dark and bleak. Did he ever stop to think about what she might want? No!

Catherine: Exactly. I mean, it speaks to both the John and Mary of it all, the God level of it all, but also the main plot of this episode: which is going to any length to keep who you love, regardless of what their thoughts or feelings about it might be. 

Chrisha: How do they do that? How do they find the song lyrics? Like, did they just have them stuck in their head already? And just .... 'cause it's amazing the way that they do that? I don't know. I'm fascinated by that particular process.

Catherine: So those are my thoughts. I tried to connect this to the Cas and Dean of it all, but I couldn't really go there. I mean, other than them being caught in a trap at the very end, in "Despair." And that's the thing, "We're caught in a trap / I can't walk out / Because I love you too much, Baby." I mean, Cas sacrifices himself for Dean because he loves him too much to walk away. But, I mean, I feel like that's a bit of a stretch.

Chrisha: Mmhmm. Again, going back to the question that Dean asked at the beginning: like, how far is he willing to go for a happy ending? How far are any of us willing to go for a happy ending? But it's his show, and it's his reflection. Number one, what is his happy ending? What is he envisioning? I feel like we are seeing so many dysfunctional relationships that, in some ways, it makes Cas and Dean seem like just way healthier *laughs* because they haven't always been. So no, actually, Cas and Dean doing way better than these two, like― *chortles* 

Catherine: Yeah, they are. I guess the other bit that I didn't touch upon is when Lata says to Carlos:

*Voice clip from season 1 episode 10 of The Winchesters, “Suspicious Minds,” plays* Lata: Giving your fear of intimacy a get out of jail free card does not count as help.

Catherine: I mean, Dean had so much fear of intimacy. Carlos was being Dean in this episode. I feel like .... I can't handle this. This is more than I am able to cope with, 'cause it's just too good.

Chrisha: *cackles*

Catherine: So ... I'm not going to do anything. *laughs*

Chrisha: Mmhmm. We will stick a pin in it. We will come back.

Catherine: Yeah! *giggles* Anyway, I think that's it for me. In every sense, I think I'm done. 

Chrisha: Yup. I'm there. 

Catherine: *giggles again* Okay. What you haven't heard is the 20 bajillion interruptions of various people walking into my hallway and having loud conversations. Like, this happened, I think, five or six times during this episode.

Chrisha: Yeah, and this is a short episode. So, you know ...

Catherine: Yeah, it's just been ... Ugh. I reached the end. Anyway. You can message us and stay up to date with the latest on our Twitter page, which is @TheFangirlBiz, that's B-I-Zed or B-I-Zee, depending on where you live in the world. We also have our Ko-fi, which you can join at the bottom tier for $1/month, and be part of our Discord group, which is wonderful and lovely and full of amazing humans. And we will see you again next time. Until then, carry on, Wayward Friends. We love you. Bye! 

Chrisha: Bye!

Outro Instrumental Rock Music: “Play the Game” by VooDoo Blooze

Outtake:
Catherine: Yeah, and the wider thing about this song is that it's all about being in a relationship where somebody suspects that you're cheating, and you're not. Um. And so ... I don't know what my point was about that. I'm too tired. Um ... Yeah, that's fine. I'm gonna let that go. Yeah.