1: PurCon 9 & "Watching Over Me" - aka It's a F***ing Duck

Chrisha and Catherine are BACK to celebrate the 5th anniversary of the "I love you" heard around the world in Supernatural's episode "Despair."

They begin with an update on how they are both doing (spoiler alert: shipwreck documentaries and true crime are major pasttimes at the moment) and their take on the current status of fandom in general.

They then move on to the events from Purgatory Con 9, which took place in Dusseldorf, Germany, from May 31st-June 1st, 2025. They focus in particularly on Jensen talking about the meaning of "Watching Over Me" and his approbation as he listened to Misha discuss "Despair"'s homosexual declaration of love. 

As part of this discussion, they contrast their past worry about getting things wrong in their analysis with their current, more relaxed feeling about approaching Supernatural-related material, even without the confirmation of figures like Ackles.

Their conclusion: If it looks like a duck, and it quacks like a duck, it's a f***ing duck, y'all. And that's how they're going to approach everything from now on.

Note: The question Jensen answered about "Watching Over Me" was from @blanketforcas.bsky.social, who kindly provided us with a transcript of what she asked here after this episode went live! Thanks, Tess!

Credits:

• PurCon 9 Audio of Jensen talking about "Watching Over Me": meat+salt on X
• Article "'Supernatural' Fans are Losing It Over Jensen Ackles' Latest Confession": Lauren Gordon for Parade
• "I wrote 'Watching Over Me' for us" Destiel News Meme: dclovesdestiel on Tiktok
• Purcon 9 Text of Misha's answer to the query of what would have happened if Castiel arrived on S1: Drula aka CasIsLoved on X (via castiels-influence on tumblr)
• PurCon 9 Audio of Jensen and Misha's introduction on stage: MishsMaroon on X
• PurCon gif set of Misha talking about how "Despair" happened: purewasteland on tumblr

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Thanks for listening!

Transcript

Disclaimer: Welcome to The Fangirl Business: A Supernatural Podcast. The information presented in this podcast is intended to be for entertainment and educational purposes only. It should never be used in place of advice given by a mental health or medical professional or as a substitute for mental health treatment. If you are struggling with a mental health issue, please seek treatment from a mental health professional in your area.

Intro Instrumental Rock Music: “Play the Game” by VooDoo Blooze

Chrisha: Hello and welcome to this episode of The Fangirl Business. 

Catherine: I'm Catherine. 

Chrisha: And I'm Chrisha, and today we are back after I don't even know how long! I―literally, has it been like two years, year and a half? I don't―It's been a long time.

Catherine: Last time was February 2024―I looked―and we are now―

Chrisha: Gosh.

Catherine: ―recording in October 2025. *laughs*

Chrisha: Wow. Okay, yeah, it's been, it's been a while. So we are back for kind of a limited mini season to kind of just check in and see how things are nearly five years on from “Despair” and the “I love you” heard round the world. Which…five years??? Are you freaking kidding me? Like, wha―what???

Catherine: *laughing softly* I know. What is time?

Chrisha: *makes pained sound*

Catherine: What is time?  

Chrisha: Like, post-COVID time, truly, it has never…it has never recalibrated to normal, now. Like time is just wibbly wobbly and it will be forever, I think.

Catherine: Mhmm. It's like one of those both simultaneously “that was like decades ago,” and it was also yesterday.

Chrisha: Yeah, absolutely wild. So I think we're just, yeah, doing kind of a state of the fandom and state of us, and talking maybe a little more specifically about some of the recent “Watching Over You”…do we call them declarations? *cackles* I want to be dramatic, like all the articles written about it, and be like the…*laughs and continues in silly voice* “The Declaration”―which is really just Jensen answering a question at a con. *laughs* So…

Catherine: Yes, right? I think it was called a confession. And I was like―

Chrisha: Mmmmmm.

Catherine: *echoes mmmmm but makes it sound pained* Yup. *laughs* 

Chrisha: Yeah, okay. Really got to punch up that language to make it…*starts laughing* make it something.

Catherine: But I've got to say, we have a lovely Discord community, and I am not as involved in fandom now. I'm pretty―I'm pretty disconnected and kind of living my life more in the physical world than I was for a very long time. And the lovely thing about our Discord group is they keep me apprised of all of the fandom goings on, so I don't have to monitor.

Chrisha: They are the news. 

Catherine: That's right. And so as Purgatory Convention, PurgCon 9 was rolling out, so were the “AHHHHHHHHs” from our lovely folks over at the Discord, and we had sort of a real-time squee fest in our Supernatural server, which was amazing. So a lot of this is from that. A lot of what we're going to be talking about today is from that conversation, which was a couple of months ago now. But, you know, we got to it eventually. *chuckles*

Chrisha: Yeah. Well, before we get into it, let's―like, how are you? You mentioned, like, living more in physical space, but what you've been up to?

Catherine: Yeah, yeah. So life continues to life. 

Chrisha: It does that. Yeah. 

Catherine: It does. But there's been a lot of really good stuff happening for me. So with… *pain laugh* With the political climate at the moment… So I had moved from Twitter to Bluesky before Bluesky was a thing, because I could see the direction it was going. So I moved over to Bluesky, and I was doing the fandom thing. And then I realized that, because our fandom people are also very caring, loving, politically active people, I was seeing a lot of the news, like, like, bombarded all the time, and I found that quite overwhelming. So I've stepped away from Bluesky a little bit, and from social media, except for our Discord group. I'm quite active on there most of the time. And so yeah, I've been doing a lot of therapy. I've graduated from two different trains of therapy. So I was doing mainstream therapy for general stuff, and then I was doing a specific kind of therapy for a specific kind of trauma. And I have been doing well enough with that one that I'm done, that's wrapped, which I'm really excited about.

Chrisha: Mmmm, that's wonderful. 

Catherine: Thank you. And I've been writing a story, and I'm about 46,000 48,000 words in on that. And I'm hoping to have that done by the end of the year. And I was able to have, like, a real published author, who was a writer in residence at my former university, look it over. And she's a best selling author, and she gave me really encouraging feedback.

Chrisha: Oh my goodness. Ohhhhhh, that's exciting!  

Catherine: Yeah! And I'm in the formative stages of starting a podcast on the abuse that I went through in my marriage and the healing journey that I've been on in the hopes that it will help other people. So that's kind of, like, in a nutshell, kind of what I've been going on―uh. Going…what's been going on with me? Those are the words. And―

Chrisha: *chuckling* We know how to podcast! We know how to speak, right? Right! Sure!

Catherine: We are so eloquent all the time. 24/7. *giggles* Yeah. So that's a little snapshot of me, and I guess I've had some health challenges. I was recently in a car accident, but I'm okay. So, you know, things like that have also been going on, but for the most part, it's been good. 

Chrisha: I'm so glad. 

Catherine: Thank you. And there's been a lot of healing that's happened internally, as well as my fibromyalgia is doing well. So, yeah!

Chrisha: Good. 

Catherine: How about you? What's been going on with you? You've had some big life stuff.

Chrisha: Yeah, sort of been like a whole life change. Hence the struggling to podcast. I mean, I think I mentioned my divorce on the podcast at some point. 

Catherine: You did, yeah. 

Chrisha: That was finalized. And then the kids and I moved kind of across the country, so it's been a lot. We kind of moved to a place that was completely fresh. Didn't really know anybody. So that's been…hard. *pain laughter*

Catherine: *sympathetically* Yes.

Chrisha: A lot harder than I think I thought it was gonna be, and I knew it was gonna be hard. So I also picked a rough year, societally, for a major life change, trying to get settled. It's been a little rocky at the higher levels that trickle down, certainly, when you're trying to, I don't know, have some stability in your life for once. So―

Catherine: Yeah, the timing has been rough. 

Chrisha: It has. 

Catherine: But you ended up in an amazing community, right?

Chrisha: Yeah, I'm really happy where we are. I think that I've been really focused on getting the kids settled, and―

Catherine: Of course.

Chrisha: ―have perhaps not been as oriented to my own stuff. So I'm trying to transition to really taking care of myself, because I've had some health stuff too, and the stress has just been a lot. And been a little bit in a haze for a while, like a caretaking haze between work, which is all clients, and then parenting and not really getting a break. It's just been a lot. So it's been hard. I'm not in fandom space as much either. I think you and I kind of did similar things. Like I left Twitter because it was, you know, a sinking ship. And, um, just was not interested―

Catherine: Not just a sinking ship: it was a cesspool of just the worst of humanity.

Chrisha: A sinking ship into a pile of sewage. Yeah.

Catherine: Yeah. *pain laughs*

Chrisha: Not good. So came to Bluesky―like, similar thing. So back in … what was that? 2016, I guess? That's when I was, like, deep in my dissertation, and I was doing interviews in fandom, around fandom and mental health. And I did a bunch of interviews, September, October of 2016. People were like, “Yeah, absolutely.” And then Election Day in 2016 happened, and then fandom was just gone. Because it's almost like a Maslow's Hierarchy kind of thing, the way I envision it. When the country is good and stable and feels like it's progressing, people have space for things like fandom and fun and leisure, and it's harder to find that space when things are not so stable and not so safe.

Catherine: Yes, and can you just explain Maslow's Hierarchy, for those who don't know what that is?

Chrisha: Yeah, it's basically like a pyramid of where our focus and energy goes. At the very bottom is food, water, shelter, and then you go up to things like psychological safety or health, and on up you go to self actualization. And so the point of it is, if you don't have water and shelter and food, you're not going to be able to do these higher level self actualizing, living your best life, things. 

Catherine: That's right.

Chrisha: All the energy goes to finding food and shelter.

Catherine:  Right. Those are the foundational things that you absolutely need in order to be able to build higher up the pyramid. Yeah.

Chrisha: So I think we got knocked back in fandom spaces, which is why it's just a different vibe these days.

Catherine: Yeah, that's a really great insight. Thank you for sharing that, because I think for our corner of the fandom, anyway, we are progressive. That is who we are at our core. 

Chrisha: Right.

Catherine: And so, of course, we're going to be affected by the real-life stuff that's going on in the world, and that's going to hit hard. Because when you're in a progressive space, that's including a lot of people who are more vulnerable. That makes sense to me, that in both of these elections, that there was a real dip in fandom, and I hadn't put that together before. So thank you.

Chrisha: Mmhmm. Yeah, well, I mean, like I said, it impacted my data collection. It was really hard getting the rest of my interviews, because people were just not there, not thinking about it. It wasn't a priority. It was, “How do we take care of ourselves out here in physical space?” So.

Catherine: Yes.

Chrisha: I think for sure that's happening again. And also, similar to you, I just have to really limit my intake, especially with the job that I do. I don't really get a break from the real world, so I just have to be real careful with my own mental health.

Catherine: I can imagine as a therapist, it's not an easy time. *pain laughs*

Chrisha: It is not. *pain laughs* That is correct. And so a lot of my not at work and not parenting time is more like *sighs* kind of numbing stuff, honestly. It's a lot of puzzles and shipwreck documentaries, and, you know, stuff that's very like―doesn't push my brain too hard, cause my brain's tired. So. *exhausted laughter*

Catherine: Yes. *laughs as she continues* I'm almost embarrassed to admit it: I've lately gotten into true crime, which―

Chrisha: Hey, you know? 

Catherine: *laughing* I'm like the stereotype of every middle-aged woman.

Chrisha: And podcaster. Are you gonna start a podcast? I hear that's―

Catherine: *empathically* No. 

Chrisha: *laughing* I hear that's the thing to do, right?

Catherine: *cackles* No, no, no, I will―that is one thing I can promise you: I will never become a true crime podcaster.

Chrisha: So that'll be the cry for help. If you start a true crime podcast at some point, that will be when I know it's a cry for help of some kind. 

Catherine: *emphatically* Yes. 

Chrisha: Like, “Hey, hey, what's going on here? You okay?” *laughs*

Catherine: *laughing* “How―How are things, really?”

Chrisha: Right? 

Catherine: Oh, man! Anyway. *both laugh* And I think, too, the other thing that is just the ongoing thing is that: it's a hard time for fandom in general. 

Chrisha: Well, they canceled everything. They canceled everything! Like, what the hell? *wheeze laughs*

Catherine: *blows out a breath* Everything is canceled, and there are scandals with people that were very beloved, like Neil Gaiman and―

Chrisha: Yeah! Yeah.

Catherine: ―just like, you know, just… It's been a bad time for fandom, and especially for anything that's related to queer fandom. Things are getting canceled, left, right and center because of the political atmosphere. And so, like, it's just a hard time for fans right now. And so I think that's affected fandom as well. Like, how do you invest in something that is maybe going to disappear in a season, or two seasons? 

Chrisha: Absolutely. 

Catherine: And so I've become very much general audience again, which I didn't think I could do anymore. But I can, because I've made myself.

Chrisha: Yeah.

Catherine: I just don't invest the way that I used to.

Chrisha: A hundred percent.

Catherine: So, you know, it's sort of like a self-protective kind of thing. Right now, as we're recording this, the new Wednesday― Second half of the second season of Wednesday has dropped. 

Chrisha: Ahhh, so good. Yeah.

Catherine: Which is incredible. And I have always been a closet goth. Like, I watched the original black and white Adams Family back in the day.

Chrisha: Oh, yeah! For sure. So good.

Catherine: And thought it was so cool and so interesting and so creepy. I loved that whole vibe, even as a kid, before I was a teenager and putting on the makeup and all that stuff. But I can't delve in. I just―like, deep. I can't go deep. I can't. 

Chrisha: Yep.

Catherine: So yeah, I think this is a good conversation for figuring out why we are where we are, like―*laughs* And why we're just being super cautious about delving into fandom. 

Chrisha: Yep. Yep. Despite us being a little distant from things, the cons continue. 

Catherine: Yes.

Chrisha: I know that, and I know that there's new people finding Supernatural, which is great. 

Catherine: It's fantastic.

Chrisha: Like, I've been watching it with my teenager. 

Catherine: Tell us a little bit about that, because the last time that Zoey was on this podcast, she had just turned nine, right?

Chrisha: *laughs* Eight. It was eight, yeah.

Catherine: *flabbergasted* Eight! She was eight??? *gasps*

Chrisha: I think?

Catherine: Oh my gosh.

Chrisha: Was she―? Yeah, because that was the COVID one. That was right when she turned eight. 

Catherine: Oh my gosh. 

Chrisha: Uh huh.

Catherine: And now you have a teenager. 

Chrisha: Yeah, yep, she's 13 now, which is bonkers. Again…where does time go? 

Catherine: That's right. Tell our audience how you got her wrangled into your fandom.

Chrisha: I mean, she's a nerd. Like, I mean, you know―*laughs* 

Catherine: But wasn't it― It was always too scary for her, right?

Chrisha: Yes, it was too scary. I guess I got her in through Doctor Who, is really what happened. So I watched―it was Ncuti’s first episode: the Christmas episode of Doctor Who with the Goblin King. And I watched it, and was like, “Oh, Zoey's gonna love this.” She was always terrified of Doctor Who, which was my OG fandom. And so there's always been Doctor Who stuff all over the house. But she saw cybemen at some point and it scared the crap out of her when she was little tiny.

Catherine:  Of course, they're terrifying. Oh, God. Yeah.

Chrisha: So… But I was like, “Can I just―? It's Christmas? Can I just show you this episode?” And she watched it, and she was like, “ *mimicks Zoey’s exasperated sigh* “Fine. I love him. Let's do it.” So we spent, like, a whole year watching every single episode of Doctor Who and then after that, it was everything. It was Good Omens. It was Lord of the Rings, it was The Hobbit. She just went into all of it. And then she was like, “Okay, I'm ready.” So we did it. We took a break in there. So she watched pretty consistently up until the angels fell. And then she left for a couple of weeks. And then when we got back, we were sort of watching more Dropout TV, Dimension 20 D&D campaigns, basically. 

Catherine: Gotcha.

Chrisha: But we just recently came back, and of course, I'm realizing what phase we're in now. And she loves Charlie so much. I'm like, “Oh God.”

Catherine: Mmmmmm. Oh, the pain. 

Chrisha: Uuuuuuugh. What am I doing? But, whatever. This is fandom. If you really want to know what it's like, and she seems to want to do that, then… I will say the one thing that I find hilarious is that Zoey grew up listening to our podcast because I would listen to it in the car and stuff after the episodes would post, and so she would hear the things that we were talking about with season 15, right?

Catherine: Right. Right, right. 

Chrisha: That was where we were. And now she watches, and she's like, “Are you freaking kidding me? You all were talking about a stained glass window, when this kind of blunt, ‘The last person that looked at me that way got laid.’ And you're talking about a stained glass window. Are you kidding me?” *both cackle* I’m like, “Listen, I get it, and you're not wrong, okay? It's just that we weren't talking about this season.” *continued dual cackling* But like, every time they have one of those moments, she's just like, “Stained glass window, huh?” 

Catherine: I love her. 

Chrisha: So anyway, for the youths watching, it's not even a question, right? She's just like, “This is so blunt. This is so gay. I don't―who would not see this?” You know, of course, she's 13, so she knows everything, and everyone else is stupid. So, like, in her mind, it's just like, “Well, obviously.” So it's just funny. It’s just funny.

Catherine: I love it. And I love that there's this whole new generation that's coming into watching Supernatural. And I love that she's braver at 13 than I was at, like, 20-something when it came out originally. I love that so much. And I also love that at the cons, they consistently ask the question, “Is this your first con?” And there's so many people that are―

Chrisha: So many. So many!

Catherine: ―so many people that are finding Supernatural, and coming to it for the first time, who are super excited and enthusiastic. And that gives me hope for down the road. I think that'll be a different episode where we maybe talk a little bit about what we think about a revival or a movie or whatever the heck. But it does make me hopeful that this is not petering out. This is―this is self sustaining.

Chrisha: *overlaying with Catherine speaking about it not petering out* No, no. Yeah, and Zoey's already planning our podcast. She wants she and I to do some sort of thing, or come guest on a podcast of us, where she gets to talk about things from her generation’s perspective. Which I think is really cool. She's, like, watching Supernatural over in the corner being like, “Mm, this is a podcast episode. This one.”

 Catherine: *gasps* 

Chrisha: “This topic right here. This is the one. When are you and Catherine recording?”

Catherine: Can―can we do that? Seriously? I want to do that with her. 

Chrisha: Yeah! 

Catherine: I would love that. 

Chrisha: No, she definitely wants to. 

Catherine: *excited breath out*

Chrisha: Yep. 

Catherine: Oh, yeah, we need to― Okay, Zoey needs to be our new regular guest commentator when we get around to doing a season re-watch. That―that needs to happen badly. Okay, we’ll―we'll be talking more about this when we're not recording. *laughs*

Chrisha: Put―put a pin in that. 

Catherine: Put a pin in that!

Chrisha: Come back to it. Yes. Okay.

Catherine: Yes. *laughs*

Chrisha: So now we're going to transition to actually talking about the topic of the podcast half an hour in, which―half an hour is pretty good for us, frankly.

Catherine: It is. And I'll edit it down so it'll be shorter, per usual.

Chrisha: *chuckles* Uh huh. I just―like, for you and I chatting, a half hour is pretty good. 

Catherine: Well, that's true. It's true. 

Chrisha: Yeah. Okay, so tell me about―I see things in the Discord. 

Catherine: Yes.

Chrisha: I have been terrible about communicating in the Discord, because I talk all day, and then at some point my brain shuts off. 

Catherine: Yeah, that's okay. 

Chrisha: Which is not great from a relationship/isolation perspective. I really need to talk to people more. But from a capacity perspective, we're just sort of being where we are.

Catherine: Self care; self care. Honor where you are in your journey, my dear.

Chrisha: Exactly. So I see a lot of this stuff that comes into the Discord, even if I don't engage with it. Because I love that everybody just throws stuff in there. 

Catherine: Yeah, they're amazing. 

Chrisha: So this one was in Germany. Is that where that happened?

Catherine:  Yes, so this was Purgatory Con 9, and it took place in Dusseldorf, Germany, from May 31st to June 1st 2025. And the highlight of the time was the fact that Misha and Jensen had a panel together. And we all know that whenever Misha and Jensen get on stage together, things happen. And, boy howdy! *laughs*

Chrisha: Why doesn't Creation let this happen more? I want to throw a fit! ‘Cause it's always Europe―

Catherine: Because they know things happen and they don't want them to happen. That's the only explanation that I have. *laughs*

Chrisha: Uuuuuugh. So frustrating, because it's always Europe. We get the good stuff when they're over there. 

Catherine: That’s right, we do. And I'm…yeah, I―these are the moments where I wish that Star Trek transporters existed, and we could just go.

Chrisha: For real. 

Catherine: But, yeah. So because it was Purgatory Con, we have limited clips. Different conventions tend to be more or less strict about people recording the panels. And so I think this is one of the ones where they're a little bit more strict. So people were just posting clips here and there. And I looked on YouTube to see if there was a full panel, and there was not, and there never has been a full panel for Purgatory Con. So some of this, we won't have audio for. I'm gonna look and see if we can find it. But, like, some of it right now, we don't have audio for. But we do have audio for this. *clears throat officiously*

Chrisha: *laughs* 

Catherine: And this is courtesy of MeatPlusSalt on X. Jensen says:

Jensen Ackles (audio from PurCon 9): A lot of the songs Steve and I have written are … uh, have double meanings. Um, they're analogies, or they're, you know, they're, there's a way to read two meanings into them. Um, yes: “Watching Over Me” was definitely, uh―not all of it―but there are many layers in there that were inspired by um, by that, that story. 

Catherine: And he's gesturing between himself and Misha as he says that, and then he goes:

Jensen Ackles (audio from Purcon 9): Yes.

Catherine: Definitively, like, definitive “Yes.” And the crowd goes *mimicks intense whispering sound* and then devolves into applause. And then people start cheering. It's like something from, like, one of those movies with the slow clap, you know? Where, like―*breaks off to laugh*

Chrisha: Like, a straight answer? Did Jensen Ackles just have a mostly straight answer? Like, WHAT??? 

Catherine: Yes. It starts with a slow clap, and then you get the standing ovation in the movie. *Chrisha cackles in the background* Yeah, that's, that's basically what happened, it felt like, from an emotional perspective. 

(audio of the successive whispers, claps, then cheers from Purcon 9)

Catherine: And Misha goes:

Misha Collins (audio from PurCon 9): I like this sort of stunned murmuring that happened in response. *whispers* He said― 

Catherine: And he mimics *whispers* “He said.” And then Jensen kind of joins in and they're overlapping, so you can't hear what they're both saying. But Misha ends with, “We weren't just imagining it!” *wheeze laughs*

Misha Collins (audio from PurCon 9): *whispering* We weren’t just imagining it!

Chrisha: God, isn't that a theme? Mmhmm. Sums that right up. 

Catherine: *cackling* Right? So I freaked the eff out. I was like, “Listen, do all of y'all in the Discord remember that we did an entire episode about “Watching Over Me”? And they were like, “Why yes. Yes, we do.” And I was like, “And we were talking and being so careful not to ascribe intent.” 

Chrisha: Oh my gosh. Like, mmhmm. Now I look back and it's just like, “That was exhausting.” Because it's so obvious, like, and yet we were so traumatized by the finale and being wrong about everything that we were like, “We don't know! Maybe it wasn't that.”

Catherine: *laughing* Yeah! 

Chrisha: No, it was.

Catherine: *still laughing* It was! 

Chrisha: Like, obviously! *laughs*

Catherine: It was! Oh my gosh! It was! So let me―let me just―let me just read some snippets of what we said,

Chrisha (audio from TFB’s S1E43, “Radio Company’s ‘Watching Over Me’ & Some Squee”): But like this song, this freaking song, this is why I'm like, it wouldn't matter if Jensen sang it or if it was, you know, just some random band on the street. This is a DeanCas song. 

Catherine (audio from TFB’s S1E43, “Radio Company’s ‘Watching Over Me’ & Some Squee”): It really, really, really, really, really is, you know, like, I know that authorial intent is, like―we can't know it. And unless Jensen comes out and says it…

Catherine: *bops desk for emphasis* He came out and said it.

Chrisha: Well, well, well.

Catherine: He came out and said it.

Chrisha: Well, well, well. Mmhmmm.

Catherine: *drums fingers on table and sighs in a combination of relief and “SEE!!!!”*

Chrisha: Which is funny, ‘cause Misha had said it several times, but everybody's like, “We never trust anything he says, because he just says stuff.” *starts laughing*

Catherine: *laughs* It's like, we love Misha, but he's chaotic. So can we really trust him?

Chrisha: Um, no. The answer is no, I think, most of the time. So on this one, he was actually correct. How about that? And then thought it was hilarious that we were all like, “Oh my gosh! Really?”

Catherine: He was and, and I think I'm remembering this correctly: that when I was still on Twitter, I think Steve Carlson, who is the co-founder of Radio Company, was in a private Stage-It kind of thing. And I think he said it, and people heard it, but it was one of those *mimics a threatening voice poorly*, “You can't tell anyone what you heard on here, or else you're all gonna get sued by … whatever, and we'll come after you.”

Chrisha: *laughs* By whoever.

Catherine: Yeah, exactly. And so people were really hesitant to share it. And I heard the audio. Somebody shared it with me privately, but it wasn't something that we were supposed to talk about publicly.

Chrisha: Right.

Catherine: Which is why we're, like―which is why we're all … The weird privacy stuff surrounding so much of these different cons, and―where you have to sign stuff and say, like, “I'm not going to talk about what happens in this private panel.” And― 

Chrisha: Right.

Catherine: ―they were doing it with the Stage-It stuff. So there was just, like, weird things―and then there were the things that we heard, and then disappeared, and nobody could ever find again. So of course, we felt, uh, gaslit a little bit *laughs* and just couldn't take things on board. But to hear Jensen say it, I think was … Like, of course, it was, but it was like: again, like he said in the end, we weren't just imagining it.

Chrisha: I think it's so rare for Jensen to say anything definitively. And of course, he talked around it. If you look at the wording: “Some of the lyrics, some―yeah, there’s definitely like―”  But like, man. The song's about *laughs* Dean and Cas. 

Catherine: Yeah. 

Chrisha: It is what it is. And for him to even just, at the end, say, “Yes.” He just doesn't typically… He's not that direct―

Catherine: That's right.

Chrisha: ―much of the time. Certainly not about anything relating to Dean and Cas.

Catherine: That's right.

Chrisha: Like, ever. So I think that was part of the stunned response too. Was just like, “Oh, he―oh he, like, said it.” It wasn't like, “Yeah, it could have been. I don't know. Maybe I was thinking about it. Who knows? We'll see.” Which is… *laughs* He's usually really good at non-answers.

Catherine: He is, and he tried, because he's like, “Um, well, they have double meanings. And, you know, it was―definitely not all of it―but there were many layers that were inspired.” And he couldn't even say, “Destiel.”

Chrisha: What in the world would the other meaning be? Is it not a―uh― 

Catherine: I mean, it could be. It could be generically, about anybody watching over anybody, right? For Steve, it could have meant his dead uncle twice removed, is watching over―you know?

Chrisha: “But the fantasy is far too real, and I let it slip away.”

Catherine: *bursts out laughing* That would be where it was definitely just DeanCas.

Chrisha: *laughing* Like that's… That's what takes it out of, like, familial for me, is―is that one. That was relationship-y. 

Catherine: *still laughing as she talks* Okay. Maybe that was like―Maybe, maybe Steve's long-lost girlfriend, who he dated in the 90s, and he still has feelings for.

Chrisha: *cackles* That's the double meaning. Either way, it's a love song, y'all. So … *both laugh*

Catherine: Oh my God, thank you… *still laughing* Thank you for calling me on my BS.

Chrisha: *bursts out laughing again*

Catherine: That was great. But yeah, yeah, it was definitely a love song. Definitely. And I mean, you know, it's just so on the nose. So. Here's another thing I said:

Catherine (audio from TFB’s S1E43, “Radio Company’s ‘Watching Over Me’ & Some Squee”): And also, you know, the other part of it is that we're all products of society and culture, so it wouldn't surprise me if someone who's acted on the set of Supernatural for 15 years shares culturally with the fandom things that resonate and that come out on the page. There are a lot of different layers to this, and so, like, while we don't want to ascribe an intent because Jensen hasn't come out and said, “I wrote this as Dean, talking about Cas,” I think there's a shared culture, so I think it makes sense that certain things resonate.

Chrisha: *as Catherine laughs helplessly* Mmmhmm. Mmhm. So funny.

Catherine: Oh my gosh, I haven't laughed like this in a while. It's good being back. 

Chrisha: It's just, like, it's so wild to me. Like when I think back to that point of time in fandom and fandom culture and Supernatural fandom, specifically: it was so riddled with conflict. 

Catherine: Yes.

Chrisha: There was so much arguing―certainly over Destiel. There was arguing over the finale. But like, you couldn't say anything anywhere without getting just tromped. 

Catherine: Yes.

Chrisha: And obviously the actors and things, other than Misha, weren't talking about Destiel yet at that point, if I recall correctly. It was just the fandom…*sighs* the fandom being a hot mess. And it was, you know, Destiel had always been that you don't see what you see. Like― 

Catherine: Yes.

Chrisha: ―I know you see it, but you do not see it.

Catherine: Yeah. And I think for context, it's good to kind of go back. Because we were, if not the first, one of the very first podcasts that started saying the words “Destiel” out loud.

Chrisha: Yeah. 

Catherine: And now there are 20 bajillion podcasts that talk about Destiel like it's no big deal. But I remember at the time, the culture was you didn't talk about shipping on podcasts about Supernatural. And so we literally did a poll to see if we would kind of lose all of our listeners. We…we were like, trying to figure out, how do we meet people where they're at without alienating people―because we genuinely loved our listeners. And so the reason that, when you go back and look at season one, there will be, like, a “shipping edition”: We were like, “Well, we'll just separate out the shipping editions. And then if people hate shipping―”

Chrisha: Right. 

Catherine: “―they can skip that episode,” right?

Chrisha: Because people hated shipping. Like, they hated that. I mean, so many people, no matter what the ship was, were just like, very opposed to talking about it.

Catherine: Absolutely. And now it's so much more accepted. It's just a very different culture now within the fandom. I mean, I know that there's still conflict between different groups. There always will be in any setting. But it's not the way it was. And I think also the culture of Twitter really fed into that and accentuated that, because Twitter did become a place where you couldn't say anything without somebody ascribing malintent in some way. And that's one of the things that I love about Bluesky, is that they actively worked to change that. And when I got on board, when people were doing that, a whole bunch of other people would come on board and say, like, “We don't―we don't do that here. We don't ascribe bad intentions to someone. We let them explain themselves.” And that was really refreshing. So I think it was a combination of both the vehemently different camps within Supernatural, but also Twitter culture that was difficult.

Chrisha: Yeah.

Catherine: Yeah. 

Chrisha: Well, and I think different social medias―I can't speak to all of them, but I know, like, Bluesky is a good example. They have like a nuclear block. Like, if you block somebody, they cease to exist, basically. And so it just…everybody can kind of have their spaces and not have to overlap in the ways that… I don't know. Twitter was, I think, designed there towards the end to make people mad. It was all just rage bait, the way that the algorithms worked and things. And so―

Catherine: Absolutely.

Chrisha: ―you know, whatever it is, I think that people just kind of exist in their own little bubbles now. At least I don't see conflict. I don't look all that much, but anytime I'm there, if I see arguing, it's about real world issues. It's not about shipping. 

Catherine: Yeah. 

Chrisha: So I think that fandom now, at least in the limited amount that I'm exposed to it, is something people are seeking for comfort and fun and escape, and therefore are just not interested in fighting about it. You know? I know for me, it's like, I don't have space to be afraid over a comment I've made over a television show. Like, you know, s***'s way too real out there―

Catherine: Yep. 

Chrisha: ―for those kind of stakes on this kind of thing.

Catherine: Absolutely. 

Chrisha: So yeah, I mean, like, when I think back to that podcast episode that we did about this [i.e. “Watching Over You”], and I heard Jensen talking, it was validating, of course. But it was also just like, “It's about time. It's about time you started answering these questions definitively, because it's your music. Why is Misha out there talking about it?”

Catherine: Yeah.

Chrisha: Because things fall to Misha a lot, but also he's chaos, so it's always hard to figure out what's true with him. So I am glad that it seems like Jensen is getting more comfortable, I guess.

Catherine: Yes.

Chrisha: But also, like, it's about friggin time. It's been five years, like, come on, now. Can we just talk about what's real, and stop with the cryptic, ummm…

Catherine: Bulls***?

Chrisha: Yeah! Like, if it looks like a duck and it quacks like a duck, why are you telling me it's not a duck? Or insinuating that it might not be a duck? Maybe it's a duck and also a goose. I don't think it's a goose, man, I think it's a duck! Like― *laughs* 

Catherine: Thank you. Thank you. 

Chrisha: Can we just all acknowledge that it's a damn duck? *both laugh* So that's sort of where I'm at with it. 

Catherine: Yes, yes. And it's wild the amount of stuff that's still out there. This was the reaction… So there was an article that came out in Parade Magazine, and it was by Lauren Gordon, and the title was “Supernatural Fans are Losing It over Jensen Ackles’ Latest Confession.” I was like, first of all, “Confession?” Like―

Chrisha: *giving strong vocal side eye* All right.

Catherine: Like he needs to admit something that he did wrong?

Chrisha: Right. Like, did he sin? He sinned by writing a song. Okay. 

Catherine: Right? Also, the subheading―the grammar is bad. This is not me. It's just the way it was written. “Ackles has officially weighed in on his band Radio Company’s song “Watching Over Me” was inspired by two characters on a long-running show.” First of all, I think it's really interesting that five years out this is still making news. 

Chrisha: Yeah.

Catherine: Like, like, the guys say something in a con and it gets in Parade magazine, or whatever. Like…it's still happening. So the continuing relevance, I think, is encouraging. Okay, I'll just read it. “Fans of Supernatural are ironically cult-like in their devotion to the paranormal show that ran for 15 impressive seasons. Over the course of the show's run, people fell in love with many characters alongside the main roles of Sam (Jared Padalecki) and Dean Winchester (Jensen Ackles), but none were so beloved as Misha Collins’ Castiel, who had a strong bond with Ackles’ character.” So let's just stop there.

Chrisha: One might call it profound. *both chuckle*

Catherine: “Who had a ‘strong bond’.” 

Chrisha: Mmhmm.

Catherine: Mmhmm. Okay: “So much so that fans have been ‘shipping’ them”―in, like, little air quotes―“for nearly two decades.” So there's nothing in here about the declaration of love that is canon. So, it's not about shipping. It's not that Cas had a strong bond with Dean. It's that Cas loved Dean. And it's more than shipping. It's canon  that Cas was in love with Dean. Here we go. We keep going: “Recently, Ackles, who is also a musician in the band Radio Company, sent Destiel shippers into a tizzy after reluctantly confirming the meaning behind one of their songs, “Watching Over Me.” There was nothing reluctant about that! 

Chrisha: Like…yep. 

Catherine: He was careful with his language, like he always is, Mr. I'm-Going-To-Be-Careful-About-Every-Word-That-Comes-Out-Of-My-Mouth. But I didn't feel it was reluctant at all. He was doing his thing where he's leaving space for other people to think whatever they want. But he was like, “Yes, yes. It was inspired by that story,” as he gestures between himself and Misha. So, it's not reluctant, but they're framing it as that because, for some reason, there's still a faction out there in the ether that thinks that all of this needs to be monitored, or poo-pooed, or whatever. It notes that four months before this happened, so it still would have been 2025, “Collins noted during the panel that the 2021 song was written about Castiel and Dean's ‘deep bond’.” Also in quotation marks.

Chrisha: Are they allergic to the word “profound?” Like I don't understand.

Catherine: Right? 

Chrisha: Like, it's right there. It's been described.

Catherine: “So to get confirmation from the source himself was like waking up on Christmas morning for fans. The lyrics perfectly embody the tender but tough relationship between the two characters. However, he was hesitant to rile the shippers up too much.”

Chrisha: Mmm. Talk about ascribing intent.

Catherine: Right? “‘Some of the lyrics, not all of them, were inspired by that story’.” Also, it's W, E, apostrophe, R, E. “‘We're inspired by that story,’ Ackles clarified.” That's not what he said, and that is a typo. 

Chrisha: I love how judgy you are about the formatting and grammar.

Catherine: I'm sooooo judgy. When you put stuff up as part of a major publication… Parade is a name, regardless of where it stands in the entertainment industry. It's…it's a name. Get your grammar right, people, says the English degree girl. *laughs* “Still, shippers were beyond excited. The comment section was filled with triumphant, ‘I knew it!’ and a lot of fanfare. Even years after the ending, fans are still enthralled with the lore, both canon and otherwise, and that's something that Ackles, Collins, Padalecki, and so many others can be proud of.” So like, how many times in this very short article, did they go after shipping? Did they go after shippers? Did they try to downplay what Jensen said? Go after canon? *silly voice* “It's not really canon,” was sort of the implied thing. And did they, like you said, ascribe intent? So it's really interesting that even after all this time, there seems to be a thing about this.

Chrisha: Entertainment journalism, if we want to call it that, I feel like is very often so dramatic. So it's like, is this specific? Does this person that is writing this have some sort of chip on their shoulder about Destiel? Or is this just, they have to punch it up to make it dramatic and rage-baity? Or hyperbole?

Catherine: If they were trying to be rage-baity, they succeeded. *laughs* I got mad.

Chrisha: It's certainly a little over the top and just very like, “Come on. Come on.”

Catherine: Mmhmm. I mean, if Rich and Rob on their podcast are going, “Ohhhh, ohhhh. OHHHHH!” *Chrisha begins laughing* “Wait! It was really obvious!” I mean, yeah, like, maybe the rest of the world can do that too.

Chrisha: I dunno. It’s hard to not put shipping in air quotes and like, realize that that's just part of the English language now, and the common vernacular. *sighs deeply*

Catherine: Yeah, it's everywhere. I didn't know about it until I got into the fandom, but now it is a part of the vernacular. As are terms like “meet cute.”

Chrisha: Yeah. For sure.

Catherine: That’s like a thing now. Yeah, yeah. Anyway. So, it's interesting how it felt like pushback, right? After all of these years, it felt like pushback. And it kind of brought me back to that moment―do you remember? It was like an online con panel that happened within a very short time after “Despair.” 

Chrisha: Mmmm. Is this the one with Jensen?

Catherine: No. With Rich, and Misha―

Chrisha: Oh, that one. Mmmhmm! Yup.

Catherine: ―and Mark [Sheppard], and Ruth, and Rob. Misha was like, “Yes, it was a declaration of―” What was it? Homosexual declaration of love?

Chrisha: *overlapping* Yeah, a homosexual declaration of love, absolutely. 

Catherine: Yeah, absolutely. It happened. And then Rich bent over backwards to be like, “And it was so nice of the network to allow us to do this thing that was blah-blah-blah.” Like, I think Misha freaked him out, because― *laughs* I think that Misha wasn't supposed to say that, and … The way that it struck me at the time, and it's been a while since I've seen it, because that's one of those things that has disappeared from the internet. If anyone can find it, please forward it to us. But the way that I took it at the time was that Rich was twisting himself into knots as the guy who directed that episode to be like, “Network, don't get mad at us for just―for what Misha just said.” He was all like, “Yeah. And it was so wonderful of the network to allow us to tell that story.” And I went, “Oh!”

Chrisha: It was interesting that the network allowed them to tell that story, because the lore was always that it was the powers that be that, that would shut things down―Destiel-related things down. So it's interesting, yeah.

Catherine: Yeah. To me, it felt like they weren't even supposed to acknowledge the fact *laughs* that the network had allowed them to do a thing that was gay with Cas. It felt like we were all supposed to see it and then say it wasn't a duck.

Chrisha: *chuckles* Meanwhile, Misha Collins is the Kool Aid Man and just bust through walls with homosexual declarations of love.

Catherine: *laughing* I’m sorry. I’m having a really great mental image. 

Chrisha: So funny. Him busting through a wall saying, “It's GAAAAAAAAAAY!” *both cackle*

Chrisha: I mean, that's kinda what he did. *both still laughing uncontrollably*

Catherine: Oh my gosh!

Chrisha: Like, where―where would we be as a fandom, if, if Misha hadn't been doing that back then? Because, like, the “you're not―”, the “You're not crazy” tweet, that was from 2013.

Catherine: HA!!!! *comes out as a huge laugh* Sorry. *giggling*

Chrisha: *emphatically* Yeah. Yeah. Yeaaaah.

Catherine: Wow. Woooooow. And then he would occasionally, like, retweet it at pivotal moments.

Chrisha: Mmhmm! He did! He did a lot. He did that night that “Despair” aired. And so he was always the champion. It just always felt like he was kind of out there by himself. Which is why Jensen starting to answer questions, to my mind, I'm like, “Freaking finally.” Because it just seemed unfair the way that Misha kind of took all of that on.

Catherine: Yeah. Yeah.

Chrisha: You know?

Catherine: He was just out there by himself, and it did feel like, “Come on, guys! Like, support him,” which did not happen. *laughs*

Chrisha: *sighs* Yeah.

Catherine: For a really long time!

Chrisha: It didn't! I mean, I remember that con that you're talking about, and I believe it was not supposed to be shared. It was one of those things that was not supposed to be recorded. I think it was like a French con or something. It wasn't a typical one.

Catherine: Yeah. 

Chrisha: And that's probably why it's disappeared from the internet, because it wasn't supposed to be recorded.

Catherine: That's right. 

Chrisha: But I was really glad it was.

Catherine: Yeah. It was the early days of online cons, and nobody knew what they were doing. And so I think it was unintentionally put on the internet when it wasn't supposed to be. Or somebody was able to download it when they shouldn't have and posted it, or whatever it was. But it was gone pretty quickly. So yeah, if anybody has that, I would love that footage of that moment, ‘cause that was pretty iconic.

Chrisha: Yeah. I remember being struck, I guess, in a different way, in that you had Misha being very direct, but that was the first time that Rich as a director also recognized it. It wasn't just Misha talking. The fact that Rich was like, “Yeah, we did that. The network okayed that. That's the thing that happened.” I was like, “Aww!” [surprised and pleased sound] And Mark being like, “Well, of course, he's in love with Dean! He's always been in love with Dean.”

Catherine: Which, thank you, Mark.

Chrisha: *chuckles* In his Crowley accent voice, like, “Of course, he's in love with Dean. We all been knew that!” It was just…it was very nice at the time. 

Catherine: There's a reason we all adore Mark so much. He's the best. I think you're right. I think it was acknowledgement, but I just remember, like, how careful Rich was with his wording, and going, “Oh, he's being really careful here with the way that he says things.” And I was like, “There is a reason for that.” And so it just kind of hit. I agree: it's important that he said it, and he did say it, but I was noting the contrast between the way that Misha said it, and then immediately how Rich started talking. I just need to say a few other things that happened that were small things. This was found on Tiktok a little bit afterwards, and it was by DCLovesDestiel. They did a pastiche of the “I love you” scene in “Despair.”

Chrisha: The meme.

Catherine: The meme that breaks all of the news. And so it's, “I love you.” And then it's Dean: “I wrote ‘Watching Over Me’ for us. “Blue heart, green heart.” So. *giggles*

Chrisha: So cute! 

Catherine: So cute. Apparently, this is from Drula at CasIsLoved, also on X, I believe. Yes.

Chrisha: I miss Drula. *sighs*

Catherine: Me too. This is all Purgatory Con 9. This was a question asked of Misha: “If Cas was in the first season of the show, what would be different, especially in regards to Dean and Cas’ relationship? Misha's response is, “They would have a baby. Dean would carry it.”

Chrisha: Ahhh, here we are, back in our omegaverse fanfic. *laughs*

Catherine: Right? I love that there's an awareness, at least implied awareness, by Misha of the omegaverse. Mmhmm.

Chrisha: Mmhmm. He's read some stuff, I have no doubt. He would be way too curious to not.

Catherine: Yes. So that, that tidbit happened.

Chrisha: Yeah. So funny. 

Catherine: Also on X, at MishasMaroon, they shared a video. The man introducing them for this panel said that they are:

Purcon 9 Announcer: The greatest couple on and off the camera! *cheers from crowd* Jensen Ackles and Misha Collins! *huge, sustained applause and cheers from crowd*

Catherine: And everyone went, “What???” *both cackle* But then, but then, they do a little blah-blah-blah as they come on stage. And then Misha goes:

Misha Collins (audio from Purcon 9): “That was a really sweet introduction that we just got there.”

Jensen Ackles (audio from Purcon 9): “Wasn't it?” 

Misha Collins (audio from Purcon 9): “Yeah.” 

Catherine: And then they just keep going. So it's not like it just happened and nothing―they acknowledged it. And Misha thought it was really sweet, and Jensen agreed.

Chrisha: *muttered* Yeah.

Catherine: This is not―this is not helping. This is not helping. *laughs*

Chrisha: Ohhh, those two. “The greatest couple, on and off.” Goodness.

Catherine: On and off camera. *starts to laugh* Like, what????

Chrisha: Goodness, goodness. *Catherine still losing it in the background* It's so funny because as I'm watching Supernatural with my kid, we talk about if Cockles caused Destiel, or if Destiel caused Cockles. She's known about Jensen and Misha forever and watched them interact and things like that, just from things I've watched or, you know, GISH stuff or whatever.

Catherine: Right right.

Chrisha: And, yeah, again, just really funny the conversations of, “Where did this start? Where does this come from? How is this like….?” And now we're just in a place of acceptance, of like, “Yep, that was nice. We really are the greatest couple on and off camera.”

Catherine: I just, I sit here and I go … “Well….” *bursts out laughing*

Chrisha: Welp. [pops the P]

Catherine: “That happened.” And then I just have to keep living my life, because otherwise I will go crazy over the Cockles. *giggles* It's just wild. So this Purgatory Con― Maybe that's what we should title this episode, is “Purgatory Con 9.” So then this we don't have audio for. This is from PureWasteland on Tumblr, and it's Misha talking about what happened with “Despair.” And he's talked about this before, but he hasn't talked about it with Jensen sitting on the stage next to him.

Chrisha: Yeah. It hits different, I think.

Catherine: It does. So he says, “So Bob Behrens, who wrote that episode, conceived of the ending and the declaration of love before we started filming Season 15. And I talked to―I don't know if he talked to you. He talked to me about this before we started filming Season 15. And he was like, ‘Are you? Is this? Do you like this trajectory? Do you like this storyline?’ And I was like, ‘Yeah, man, I think that's f***ing awesome. That would bring so much meaning and representation to this long journey that we had. And I think it would mean the world to so many people that are watching this to have Cas be like, "I love you."' And you know, it wasn't like, 'I love you like a brother',” *Catherine mutters* Jared Padalecki, “love you. It was―"

Chrisha: *clears throat in a ‘yeah, Jared’ kind of way*

Catherine: “―'I love you,' love you. And in some ways, I think being able to do that and just make the declaration was incredibly powerful for Castiel. But I also think it was really powerful for the show. And you know, we talked about it at some point in season 15, and you―” he's talking to Jensen, “―were like, ‘Yeah, man, let's do that.’ And in some ways, we have all these barriers, all these hang ups. And for a mainstream show on a mainstream network that had a real machismo to it that felt really brave. It's been, God, it's been a long time since we actually filmed that, and now it almost seems like, yeah, it's not that big of a deal. Times changed so fast, but it felt like a big deal at the time, and I was proud to be part of it.” And Jensen nods and then smiles and claps.

Chrisha: *makes happy ‘awwww’ sound* Yeah. So we get to see Jensen agreeing, see him looking happy about it. I think anybody like us who has been really looking at reactions and looking at things that have been said have been able to piece together: yeah, Jensen, he bought into this. He was good with it. But there's something different about them talking about it together happily, where we can see it being so direct, and succinct, and thorough in the explanation. 

Catherine: Yes.

Chrisha: It hits a little different. It was really lovely to see that. 

Catherine: Also I love that Misha took the time to say it wasn't, “I love you like a brother.”

Chrisha: *emphatically* Right. Right. Kool Aid man! *laughs*

Catherine: After the fiasco that was Jared Padalecki on stage, how many months afterwards? And he―that was a disaster of a panel.

Chrisha: It was so bad. Oh my God. 

Catherine: It was so bad. It was so bad. For those who don't remember Jared Padalecki came on stage with Jensen for a panel not long after the finale had happened. It was just within the same time frame as “Despair.” And he tied himself into knots trying to distance the confession from being a love declaration―as in a romantic love declaration. And part of it was he was like, “Well, he loved him like a brother." And it came from the mother of a fan who was a member of the queer community. And he ended up equating stuff to incest. And it was just a whole mess. 

Chrisha: Yeah, that was pretty harmful. Mmhmm.

Catherine: It was bad. And Jensen left the stage at the end without―like he was... You could tell Jensen was not happy.

Chrisha: It was a different reaction than this conversation that we're referencing, where he's nodding quietly and smiling and clapping. It was a very different vibe.

Catherine: Very different vibe. *pain laughs*

Chrisha: So, I mean, I think that that's why these kinds of answers and panels and discussion… I know what's true at this point.

Catherine: Yes.

Chrisha: But it's still nice to have those things finally acknowledged and discussed, and not having it be so tense! Like there was just―everything was so tense. I'm glad that things can now just be like a nice chill conversation with just some like, relaxed body language. I mean―

Catherine: Yes!

Chrisha: ―smiles and claps versus, *in a voice that is full of cringe* “Oh, gosh.” *in normal voice* Anyway.

Catherine: Yeah, and I think that's the thing: I had gotten to a stage where I was just like, “Okay, I just have to rely on my own analysis and my own understanding. And the guys who are talking up front? It would be nice if they agreed with me, but I don't need it in order to feel validated.

Chrisha: *overlapping* Right. Mmhmm.

Catherine: Because there's also the writers, who we never hear from, and there's all of the other people who are involved. Like, the people who did the sets, who snuck in the ships―the literal ships―

Chrisha: *overlapping* Mmhmm. Right!

Catherine: ―and *laughs* who did all of this kind of stuff. I had to find self validation. But I think what's nice about this is that it is that, “You're not crazy.” We weren't just imagining it.

Chrisha: Right.

Catherine: And it's nice to have that said calmly, like you say, in a low-key kind of way, where there's room, and people aren't getting mad about it, and there is no drama. It's just―it's the way it is. It's a duck.

Chrisha: Right. Yeah. *overlapping* It’s a duck.

Catherine: It's actually a duck. We all agree it's a duck.

Chrisha: Absolutely. The self-validation piece that you're talking about? When I say I know what's true, that's kind of what I mean. They've said that it was a queer declaration. They have said that it was a romantic declaration. Like, those kinds of things, where it was so much conflict, in Jared's response, and Jensen not really talking about it, and it's so much drama. And I had to get to a similar place of like, “We know what it was.” We know what it was. We also know that there's clearly something else that we're never going to know about going on around this storyline that is its own thing that's not about us. You know what I mean? There was something behind the scenes happening. 

Catherine: Yeah. And I think that Misha came as close as they ever will to acknowledging that in this. He said, “We have all these barriers, all these hang-ups, and for a mainstream show on a mainstream network that had real machismo to it, that felt really brave.”

Chrisha: Right. Yup.

Catherine: So I think, you know, I think that's as close as we're going to get to, “Yeah, the network was f***ing with us.”

Chrisha: I think there was, for sure, network stuff. I haven't been listening to Rob and Rich's podcast, but I had for a while. And there was always the discussion, not about Destiel at the ones that I got to, but it was the notes from the network, and how that impacted the story, and how that impacted the ways that they had to do things. And so hearing it about these other things: yeah, for sure, they're gonna have notes on this kind of stuff and kind of guide in a direction. So I think there was that. But it also seems like even the performers, the writers, the actors, the directors, had their own stuff. You know? 

Catherine: That's right. 

Chrisha: And like, who knows what was going on.

Catherine: Bob Singer remains my, yeah―

Chrisha: *bursts out laughing*

Catherine: ―Bob Singer remains my villain origin story, and I was not thrilled with Jared for what he said. So yes, you're right. It's not just all at one level. It filtered down. And so yeah, there was a lot of stuff I think, going on behind the scenes. You're right, you're right, you're absolutely right. Thank you for being more nuanced. *laughs* 

Chrisha: Well, I think that, for me, that was part of my self validation: is getting to a point of recognizing we're never gonna know all the things. But also sometimes Occam's Razor just is the thing. Like, maybe it's big and confusing and dramatic and tense, because there's all of these different people with different opinions behind the scenes, just like there are out here in fandom. There's so many people that make these shows. Having everybody completely on the same page seems almost unrealistic. For as many people―especially when we are talking about the end of it, at Season 15. You know? Everybody's gonna have such strong opinions.  And so I think it was a perfect storm of different opinions, and different career paths after Supernatural, that I think also impacted the way that some of the actors, certainly, or the directors had to talk about things. If they were still employed by the network―

Catherine: Yep, yep, yep, yep, yep. We're thinking Walker. Yes. 

Chrisha: Yeah! And then COVID did happen, and so like, people were splintered. They weren't all there in the ways that they had been, working together collaboratively for all those years. I think it was a hot mess because *laughs* it was a hot mess. 

Catherine: *agreeing* It was a hot mess. 

Chrisha: You know, there's not some, like, smoking gun in there that explains everything. I think it just was a hot mess.

Catherine: I think you're probably right.

Chrisha: Fandom wise.

Catherine: Yeah.

Chrisha: So that's the truth that I came to for myself. I'd love to get that tell-all book when I'm sitting on a porch in my rocking chair someday, decades away.

Catherine: That needs to be a project that we do someday, down the road: is just, like, cold call a whole bunch of people associated with the show and be like, “Hey, we're gonna do a book. Want to tell us everything?” *chuckles*

Chrisha: *laughs* Yeah, come guest on a podcast and tell us everything. 

Catherine: That would be fun. That would be very fun. The seed of ideas for down the road. Who knows? Who knows?

Chrisha: Mmmhmm. Absolutely. 

Catherine: I think we're kind of reaching the end of what we were going to talk about today. Is there anything that we didn't hit on that you wanted to talk about?

Chrisha: Um, I think the only thing I really wanted to acknowledge is… I don't know. Kind of, like, I've been removed from fandom because it felt so tense for so long. And then real world stuff―it just gets really challenging, I think. And for me, it's been more difficult to escape into fiction because of just all the things, which really sucks. Because that usually is my escape, and I'm kind of pissed about it. 

Catherine: Yeah, yeah.

Chrisha: That it's not working right now. But I do think that now more than ever, sometimes it can be hard to escape into fiction, because there's this sense that we need to always be present, or always be engaged, with all of the things going on in the world. And we can't be. We kind of need breaks. 

Catherine: We do.

Chrisha: And so having fandom be fun again feels important, rather than having it be like… I just think about our episode about this [i.e. “Watching Over Me”] from years ago. Right? And we were so nervous and anxious. And like, I'm at a point now where I'm just like, we can have our truth. We can talk about what we see. We can have our own analysis. And maybe it's okay for that to just be fun. And maybe we don't need to be quite as terrified about being right *laughs* or perfect―

Catherine: Yes.

Chrisha: ―which I know you and both I struggle with.

Catherine: *gasps dramatically* What? Perfectionism? Me? No!

Chrisha: What? I don't know. I don't know her.

Catherine: *overlapping* Type A personality? What?

Chrisha: Mmhmm. I don't know. 

Catherine: *sighs dramatically and laughs*

Chrisha: Yeah, trying to lean into just the fun parts, whatever that means for people, I think is just so important right now, as we are living through some very volatile times.

Catherine: Absolutely. 

Chrisha: Yeah. I'm glad that we're doing this again, because it's nice to just talk about fun stuff. And―

Catherine: Me too.

Chrisha: ―remember when we used to be all freaked out, and now we're just like, “It's a f***in’ duck, y’all.” *bursts out laughing*

Catherine: *deadpan* Quack, quack. 

Chrisha: It was always a duck! Everybody settle down. Like―

Catherine:  I think that needs to be the title of― *both laugh uncontrollable* ―of our episode. It was always a f***ing duck.

Chrisha: It was always a f***ing duck. We don't even need pretty men to tell us it was a duck. It just is a duck. We're intelligent people. We can see it, you know?

Catherine: Yes. Yes. I love it. I love it. And you know, on the flip side of that, I've been finding that the stuff that I've been getting really excited about has been often referencing real-world stuff in a fictional kind of way. So I've been watching Star Trek: Strange New Worlds. And this season, they had an episode that was absolutely about what's happening in the world right now. 

Chrisha: Yeah.

Catherine: And then I watched the new Superman movie, and that is absolutely about what's going on in the world right now. And I find that sort of fiction helps me to process, in a way that isn't as overwhelming and scary, the stuff that's happening. And it's not all in your face the entire show or the entire movie, but there are elements where you're like, “This is about this, and this is speaking into this moment, and this is speaking into this moment. How did they do that? How did they figure―” Like, because―especially with the movie that was written before any of this stuff happened. But yeah, smart people knew it was going to happen. I find for me, that helps me to process almost more than watching the news does. It helps me to process emotionally, and I'm able to use the skills that I've learned through doing this podcast with you to be able to go, “Oh, this is what they're doing. That's what they're doing.”

Chrisha: Right. Yeah, yeah.

Catherine: Those are the shows that I'm kind of latching on to. And before we go, I just wanted to invite people to join our Discord. 

Chrisha: Yes, please! 

Catherine: Yeah. We're only doing the lower tier of $1 a month, which gives you access to our server. And we have really lovely human beings there. And also, for the past, I don't know, year, year and a half, we've been doing a weekly Friday get together with me hosting. And it's been super fun. We rewatched the entirety of The Winchesters. And so I would stream it so people could see it. And then I would have a bunch of discussion questions, because that was the format the group seemed to enjoy the most. I checked in a few times, and they were like, “Yeah, keep ‘em coming.” So, and―

Chrisha: So fun.

Catherine: ―we would have a discussion time about the episode afterwards. And right now, because life was a little crazy for me: I had some real physical health issues in the fall and then again in the spring, I've been doing social hour, which is a little bit more low key for me, but I'm hoping … We had started to watch Interview with the Vampire, because I find it really fascinating, and I wanted to dig into it with people. I've got the first season. I think we'll rewatch the first couple of episodes and then do some more discussion and analysis. And then probably go back to social time for a while, and then …. maybe Season 2. We'll see.

Chrisha: Fun, fun. 

Catherine: Yeah, so if people are interested, and if they have suggestions for things that they'd like to watch with the group, please let us know. We are on Bluesky only at the moment. We have left Twitter. We have left Instagram, because of the Mucks―the, the Mucks. *laughs at self*

Chrisha: *cackles* That works. We can go with that. 

Catherine: That was the best―

Chrisha: They are mucks. 

Catherine: ―slip up ever. *both laugh*

Catherine: The Musks and the Zuckerbergs of the world suck. So we are only on Bluesky. We're @thefangirlbiz.bsky.social and you can leave comments about things that you'd like to watch or things that you'd like to do on the Discord there. Or just, if you join it, message me there, and tag me, and stuff. I would love to see more people join. They're lovely. We have, like, a core group of people that are always there, and then a few that kind of flit in and out.

Chrisha: Like me.

Catherine: And it's just been amazing. *belatedly laughs at Chrisha’s comment* Life has been intense for you. 

Chrisha: I'm tired! *both laugh*

Catherine: There has never been any pressure. So Chrisha comes when she can, but life has been a lot, and I have said to her, “You need to take care of yourself and your children first. That's the thing that's the most important to me, is that you take care of yourself, and are kind to yourself, and manage your energy, and if you're able to come sometimes, that is an absolute delight, and people are always thrilled.” But yeah, I'll be there every time to kind of manage because my life is much more sane than yours at the moment. But I mean, we―we switch out. You've been there for me when I've been going through the ringer, and you've covered for me when I've been going through the ringer. So we toss it back and forth, and that's why this works. *chuckles*

Chrisha: I think I would like it if both of us could just be in a stable place for a long amount of time. I think that would be fun to try. What do you think? *wheeze laughs*

Catherine: That would be beautiful. Let's make that a life goal. 

Chrisha: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. 

Catherine: *giggles* It can be a life goal for us: both of us being in the same place at the same time. 

Chrisha: Exactly.

Catherine: Yes, absolutely. You can message us and stay up to date with the latest on our Bluesky, which is @thefangirlbiz.bsky.social. They also have a new thing on Buzzsprout, where apparently you can send us messages through Buzzsprout. 

Chrisha: No kidding! All right.

Catherine: So if y'all can figure that out and send us a message about this episode, that would be cool. We'd like to get some mail, if that’s still a thing. 

Chrisha: Yeah! 

Catherine: It was last time I looked. So, we'd love feedback. We would love it if you could like this episode or comment on it, or send feedback about the podcast on whatever platform you listen on. That would be great for us. 

Chrisha: Yeah.

Catherine: And we're currently only using our lowest tier of Ko-fi, as I said before, but you can always join us at the bottom tier of $1 a month and join that lovely Discord group I was just talking about. So we will see you again next time for this mini Season 3 that we are putting together. And until then, carry on Wayward Friends. We love you. Bye!

Chrisha: Bye!

Outro Instrumental Rock Music: “Play the Game” by VooDoo Blooze

Outtake:

Catherine: Oh, God. I keep saying Rob. Rich. The way that, uh―the way―

Chrisha: I think they’re just one person, I feel like. Can we acknowledge that they’re the same person? They’re just … they’re, like, always together. 

Catherine: *snorts* It’s true.

Chrisha: The RichRob. We should just call them “The RichRob,” and then―

Catherine: Yeah.

Chrisha: *laughs* ―not have to distinguish.

Catherine: The RichRob. I like it.

Chrisha: Uh-huh.

Catherine: I like it. I was trying to think of, like, a― *laughs*

Chrisha: Yeah, there’s no―.

Catherine: I was trying to think of, like, a smushy―

Chrisha: *overlapping* There’s no way. No.

Catherine: ―a smushy name, and it was, like … and it was Roach. And I was like, “Nooo.”

Chrisha: *bursts out laughing* Uh-uh.

Catherine: *laughing* That doesn’t work.

Chrisha: No.

Catherine: So RichRob.