2.1: The Spanish Dub, Part 1 - History, Context, and the Dubbing Industry

Note:
Hey, Wayward Friends. This episode (as well as Part 2) references an interview conducted at a fan-run convention panel 5 years ago. During the course of our research for this episode, we discovered that the moderator for that panel, Ada, recently passed away. We wanted to take this moment to send love to all that knew Ada and express gratitude to Ada herself for this iconic panel and all she gave to fandom.

Chrisha and Catherine continue their exploration of the 5th anniversary of the "I love you" heard around the world by delving into the much-celebrated Spanish Dub of "Despair." To help them better understand the context in which "Y yo a ti, Cas," happened, they bring on Catherine's friend, Elis. Elis hails from Brazil, where they also have a thriving dubbing industry (in Portuguese, of course!). She shares the cultural context of dubbing in non-English speaking countries―as well as a good portion of her fangirl knowledge about the dubbing process!

The three also delve into the history of the moment into which the Spanish Dub was released and the context of the interview with the voice actor, Guillermo Rojas (aka Memo), who spoke the unforgettable line.

Part 2 of this episode will look at the interview itself.

Credits:

• Audio of Misha Collins at DarkLight Con 2020: @HasnaaAlaa on Youtube
• Audio of the Latin American Spanish dub of "The Truth": @heartsmish on X
• Audio of Misha Collins discussing the "rogue translator": @mishacollins on X
• HarleyCon Interview with Guillermo Rojas, Dean Winchester's Latin American voice actor: @egoismht on YouTube

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Transcript

Disclaimer: Welcome to The Fangirl Business: A Supernatural Podcast. The information presented in this podcast is intended to be for entertainment and educational purposes only. It should never be used in place of advice given by a mental health or medical professional or as a substitute for mental health treatment. If you are struggling with a mental health issue, please seek treatment from a mental health professional in your area.

Intro Instrumental Rock Music: “Play the Game” by VooDoo Blooze

Tribute [Chrisha]: Hey, Wayward Friends. This episode focuses on an interview conducted at a fan-run convention panel 5 years ago, and during the course of our research for this episode, we discovered that the moderator for that panel, Ada, recently passed away. We wanted to take this moment to send love to all that knew Ada and express gratitude to Ada herself for this iconic panel and all she gave to fandom.

Chrisha: Hello, and welcome to this episode of The Fangirl Business. 

Catherine: I'm Catherine. 

Chrisha: And I'm Chrisha, and today we are here to continue celebrating 20 years of Supernatural and 5 years since one of the most iconic scenes in television history: the “I love you” heard around the world. More specifically, today we're going to discuss and deconstruct Latin America's Spanish dub of the 18th episode of Supernatural’s 15th season, “Despair,” which was …. the second time Destiel went canon? Tenth? Fifteenth? Like― *both laugh* It just kept happening, over and over.

Catherine: So many times. 

Chrisha: Mmmhmm. So. *laughs*

Catherine: So many times. And we have a lovely guest here today with us. 

Chrisha: Woohoo!

Catherine: She is our first guest in a very long time: my friend, Elis. Hi, Elis!

Elis: Hi!

Chrisha: Hello!

Elis: Hi, hello. *giggles*

Catherine: Elis and I are part of the same book club, where we are all Supernatural fans. So everybody who is in the book club, we know each other because of Supernatural. And I absolutely adore Elis. So can you tell us a bit about yourself: where you're from, what you do, and how you became a fan of Supernatural?

Elis: Well, actually, I'm from Brazil, the southern of Brazil, and basically what I do is being an English teacher. We actually don't have a lot of people who do that; who both, like, teach and speak English in my country. So I'm trying to change that a little bit by helping my students to, you know, become fluent in the language. That's what I do. I help people with English, making things easier. 

Catherine: Love it. 

Elis: Yeah. And the story of how I became a fan of Supernatural is actually a pretty long story. Long story short, obviously, it was 2013 and as you can imagine, I was a Tumblr girl! Obviously. 

Catherine: Ooooh.

Elis: *laughs* I was absolutely in love with Sherlock. My ex, she introduced me to Sherlock. And as a consequence, Doctor Who. 

Chrisha: Oh yeah!

Elis: I was a little―yeah, the classic, SuperWhoLock girl.

Chrisha: Me as well. *both Elis and Chrisha laugh* The pipeline from one to the next.

Elis: So much suffering! So much pain and loss. Yeah, the classic, the classic. So during 2012 and 13, basically, I was on Tumblr going insane. *Chrisha and Catherine laugh* And from time to time, obviously I would see those gifs with Dean and Cas, and I was like, “Hmm, interesting! Maybe someday. Interesting!” And then, obviously, April 1 came, and we had the first Mishapocalypse, and it was insane. So I was a little more convinced to join. And the thing that changed everything was actually “The Harlem Shake.” When I saw it, you know, the video, I was like, they are just so freaking crazy. I need that. *Chrisha laughs* I need that in my life. 

Catherine: Is this the one where they were dancing at the crossroads?

Elis: Yeeeep. 

Chrisha: Yup.

Catherine: Okay!

Elis: Exactly! The one and only! So I was like―

Catherine: Okay.

Elis: “That's my kind of crazy. I need that.”

Catherine: Ha!

Elis: Then I was like, “Okay, we have a next season in October.” September, October―I don't remember. So I basically binge watched eight seasons of Supernatural in a month and a few days, and I never left really after that. So that's the story. That SuperWhoLock girly, here, became obsessed.

Catherine: I love it. 

Chrisha: Yep, yep. 

Catherine: Do any of us ever leave once we start? 

Elis: Oh, nonononono. 

Catherine: That's the question. 

Elis: Absolutely not. 

Chrisha: Clearly not. It's been five years, and here we are.

Elis: Exactly!

Chrisha: *laughs* It's not even on the air anymore.

Elis: Exactly! I watch other shows, right? So I have other pairings that I love and cry about on the internet because―oh my God, make them kiss already―and all that.

Chrisha: *belly laughs*

Catherine: 911?

Elis: Ah, the one and only. *sighs* So tired about it. But anyway― *all three laugh*

Chrisha: True fan. “I'm so tired.”

Elis: Yeah. From time to time, when someone posts anything about Supernatural, because mostly of my Twitter is Supernatural, right? 

Catherine: Right. 

Elis: So I'm like “Ahhh, that's―Oh, the heat. The heat. Oh, my God! My heart; my emotions! And then, you know, it just brings me back to the insanity of Supernatural. Ugh. I hate them so much. *laughs* Where is the peace? Where is the peace? 

Catherine: You can never leave. 

Chrisha: No.

Catherine: You can never, ever leave. 

Elis: They promised the peace after they were done, but they are never done!

Chrisha: Lies. LIES.

Elis: *overlapping with Chrisha* Lies! Freaking liars! I hate them. *giggles*

Catherine: *laughing* Oh, my gosh, I love it. Oh, okay, so you can probably tell already why I love Elis. *both laugh* 

Elis: It's the crazy.

Catherine: *laughs* It's the enthusiasm, and the bubbliness, and the warmth, and the personality. You've got it all. 

Elis: Awwww.

Catherine: Part of the reason why I wanted to invite Elis here is because she is from Brazil. And the first language there is Portuguese, so she understands dubbing in a way that we who speak English only don't. *Catherine and Elis chuckle* So I'm hoping you can tell us a little bit about how dubbing works in Brazil, and what you know about the voice actors who do voices for different people, and how the process works. Can you tell us a little bit about that and your understanding of it? 

Elis: Oh, absolutely, absolutely. I'm not a specialist. I'm not claiming to be a specialist in the area. 

Catherine: Right.

Elis: It's just what I've experienced by watching the dubbing area, because … Secrets! Secrets are coming out now. I wanted to be a translator and a voice actor when I was very young, meaning back in 2002 when I fell in love with the world. 

Catherine: Ohhhh!

Elis: Yeah, like I loved that idea. But then I just never went through with it, because I fell into the teaching role, and I absolutely love it. 

Catherine: Yes. Different career track.

Elis: Exactly―just so people don't think like, “Oh, what she says is the law there.” No, no, no, no, absolutely not. 

Catherine: Right.

Elis: It's just what I gathered through my experience watching movies and shows, and learning a little bit more about the area that I was looking into maybe being a part of, you know?

Catherine: Yes.

Chrisha: That fangirl knowledge. 

Elis: Yeah, exactly! A fangirl of the dubbing thing. Yes, yes. 

Chrisha: We all have our hyperfixations, and have―

Elis: Exactly.

Chrisha: Like, especially this fandom is really known for people in the fandom that deep dive into a certain aspect and then just have a lot of knowledge there.

Elis: Yes, exactly.

Chrisha: So I appreciate you coming on and talking to us.

Elis: Oh, you're very welcome. It's what I see happening, but maybe I'm wrong in some details―but that's what makes sense, I guess, when you think about the area.

Catherine: Yeah.

Elis: Just by observing and researching a little bit about it, that's what you see, mostly, I guess.

Catherine: Yeah.

Elis: That's what I'm trying to say. 

Catherine: That makes sense. But again, as Chrisha says, fangirl knowledge―I think we don't give ourselves enough credit for how much we actually know when we're fans. *Elis laughs* So what you know culturally, as somebody who lives in a country where English is not the first language, I think that's valuable. And I think also you were interested in this. You looked into it as a career path. So you have some knowledge that perhaps even the average person sitting on the couch in Brazil maybe wouldn't know.

Elis: Well, I'm here to help as much as I can. *laughs*

Catherine: You're amazing. 

Elis: With my little knowledge of then, then, this world. Yeah, but anyway.

Catherine: I appreciate it. I appreciate it. 

Elis: The thing about dubbing, and I think I mentioned before to you personally, is that, for example, you have these very famous actors, right? So what they usually do here in Brazil is they have contracts. We have, like, two main companies. One is in Rio and one is in Sao Paulo, I think―don't quote me on that. That's what I remember from the time I was obsessed with dubbing back in 2002. One of these main companies are hired. And for example, we―one of these companies, they are responsible for basically everything that is Warner related, for example, right? 

Catherine: ‘Kay.

Elis: So movies, shows, they go to these specific company, usually, you know? That's what we see, because―actually, we don't see. We hear. Because when you have these famous actors and actresses and everything, usually they use the same voice actors in everything they do. For example, I looked for it, and usually Jensen, the actor that dubs him, is called Regionaldo Primo. He is the voice that represents Jensen since, probably before, but I checked Smallville, Supernatural, and Countdown.

Chrisha: Wow! Across different shows, even!

Elis: Exactly.

Chrisha: That's amazing.

Elis: Yeah! So sometimes you recognize the voices of the actors―

Chrisha: Huh.

Elis: ―because of that. If you have this actor coming in the scene, you will recognize their voice, because it's usually the same actor that dubs them. The only exception that I found was in The Boys―that they changed the actor, because Regionaldo also dubs Carl Urban.

Chrisha: *laughs* Yeah. 

Catherine: Oh my gosh! Carl Urban! Okay. 

Elis: Yes, exactly! 

Chrisha: Huh!

Catherine: So they couldn't have the two!

Chrisha: So funny.

Elis: Exactly! So they had to hire a different actor because of that. But usually, like I said, you have the same actors because the movies and shows, they go always to the same companies, basically. One of the important things that I think we should mention about dubbing is that, just like with acting, it takes a long time to be done. So it's not something that happens very quickly, because you need someone to translate what's being said in the original into the language that you want to dub in. It doesn't matter if it's Portuguese, Spanish, Italian, whatever language. And after the translation, you also have to check the mouth movement, because the languages are different, right? So you have to try and match what the script is saying to the mouth movement. So sometimes you have to edit, a little bit, the text to remain close to the original. But you need to match the mouth movement, otherwise it makes no sense.

Catherine: Yes. 

Chrisha: So there's a lot of intentionality.

Elis: Exactly, and it takes time for you to do that. It's not something that you just see it and record. And that's why they also have, like, the directors: because sometimes you watch the original to try and see the emotion that the actor is bringing up in their voices, so they can represent that as well. So it's not just the mouth movement. It's not just to be faithful to the original material. You also need to bring emotion. Otherwise it sounds flat.

Catherine: Right.

Elis: So just saying words sounds flat. So sometimes the director will have to do the same as any other kind of acting: they'll have to cut, talk about it, and improve that.

Catherine: Right.

Elis: So it is something that takes a long time. And then after that, you also have the editing. Sometimes they have to re-record things. For example, talking about this infamous episode, right? In the Brazilian version of the dub― *laughs*

Catherine: *in a ‘dish’ kind of tone* Tell us. 

Elis: I don't know if it's still the same. I didn't check. But you could hear birds singing on the background.

Catherine: *as Chrisha bursts out laughing* Oh no.

Elis: Yeah. Dean was on the floor, like, sobbing his eyeballs out. Like, “Oh, my God, Cas!” and you could hear the birds on the background. *cackles*

Chrisha: Wow. 

Catherine: Oh no! That's so incongruous.

Elis: ‘Cause it was in the middle of the pandemic! You know? So they had to do weird things during those days, too, you know?

Chrisha: Huh. That was funny.

Catherine: That’s so true.

Elis: I listened to that a thousand times trying to understand what those noises were. And you were birds! They were birds, singing! *cackles again*

Catherine: *chuckles* Oh, my goodness. 

Elis: Mmhm. Uh-huh! So I don't know if they recorded it again. I never checked. That was 2020, right? Five years ago. So I don't know. I don't know.

Catherine: Okay, okay. So to go back a little bit to what you just said. I think most people in the English speaking world will remember bad dubbing of movies from Japan and China, where the person who's saying the English will say the thing, and then the mouth will keep moving for five minutes on screen after that person is done saying the words. And so what you're saying is that in good dubbing, which is most of the dubbing that happens―

Elis: Yes.

Catherine: ―you want to match the mouth movements as closely as you can with the original actor, while keeping the meaning as close as you possibly can to the original script.

Elis: Exactly.

Catherine: Okay.

Elis: Exactly. You cannot change much. 

Catherine: Right. 

Elis: The only thing that they tend to alter, that's just so things make sense, is when you have specific jokes.

Catherine: Right.

Chrisha: Oh, that makes sense. Yeah.

Elis: For example, there are some jokes that they don't land―

Catherine:  That's right.

Elis: ―here in Brazil, because it makes no sense to us, right?

Catherine: Humor is very particular to each language.

Elis: Exactly. 

Catherine: And often it's the use of idioms and stuff like that, where it'll be a shorthand cultural thing that you say in one language to make a joke.

Chrisha: Oh my gosh.

Catherine: It would not translate over to the other place, because the culture doesn't translate over. So…

Chrisha: That's got to be brutal in dubbing Dean Winchester, then, because that's like half his personality. *laughs*

Elis: That's exactly what I was going to say. You know, there are many jokes that it would be impossible. 

Chrisha: Yeah!

Elis: They don't work here, you know. So…

Catherine: Yeah. 

Elis: When you talk about the jokes that specifically Dean makes? Like, oh my God, it must be chaotic for them to find something that would match and translate well to the public. I haven't watched it in Portuguese, just original, but I imagine it's a pretty hard one, because, yeah, he makes such insane jokes.

Catherine: He does. 

Elis: But the thing about it is, in this specific moment when Dean is making a joke, they'll probably adapt. But that's it. 

Catherine: Yes.

Elis: You cannot touch the rest of the material, the drama part of it. It has to be matching to the original material. You cannot deviate from the original intent of the story, you know?

Catherine: Right. 

Elis: And they take that very seriously.

Catherine: Yeah, and so let's just go back a little bit―

Elis: Yeah.

Catherine: ―and explore why they take it so seriously. So if all of the business for the WB, for instance, for Warner Brothers, goes through one company…

Elis: Mmmhmmmm. Can you imagine?

Catherine: Right. 

Elis: You'll receive something, and they do something crazy with the material? Do you think Warner would continue to send them work for them to dub? Absolutely not. Absolutely not. So, like, I always say their asses are on the line. *laughs*

Chrisha: Mmhmm. Yeah!

Elis: I always say that. Like, who would put their job in jeopardy? It is crazy to me, because of the way that we see our dubbing industry here in Brazil. They take that very seriously. One of the things that is very popular here in Brazil when you have, like conventions and stuff, is having these actors come as guests and have interviews done. Because it's a big deal here in Brazil.

Catherine: So, like, at a Supernatural convention―

Elis: Maybe we could see something like that: the Brazilian actors being present, for example.

Catherine: Right alongside of Jensen and Misha, just for example.

Elis: Yeah, especially if it's something like, for example: here we have one main, which is Comic Con, right? It is the biggest one for acting in general―movies and shows and all of that. But we also have smaller conventions, more focused on animes or just cartoons in general, you know? So―

Catherine: Right.

Elis: ―for example, I went to one in Porto Alegre, and they had some of these people that are invited to the same con. So it is a big deal here, because most people, they watch it dubbed. Everything! From movies to TV shows. Like my students, it's sometimes difficult. When I ask them, they are like, “Oh, but I watch it in Portuguese.” 

Catherine: Right.

Elis: And I'm like, “Can you just try and watch one, two episodes in English?” It is a way for us to improve pronunciation, the listening skills, you know. So this is the thing about the importance of these people here―

Catherine: Yes. 

Elis: ―in our country. And you see that happening in other places as well. So they would never do something that would put their asses in line. 

Catherine: Yes. 

Elis: Can you imagine? For years and years and years, as far as I can remember, the companies in Brazil received the material from the same client from the US. 

Catherine: Yes.

Elis: You know, it doesn't change much. Like I said: this one, they always receive the productions made by Warner Bros, which means the CW as well, back in the day, right? 

Catherine: Yes. Yes.

Elis: So everything that has the Warner logo goes to this specific company. So can you imagine if you just decided, “No, let's change everything here,” and you tell a completely different story. 

Catherine: Right.

Elis: You're breaching contract! 

Catherine: Right!

Elis: That's crazy to me! 

Catherine: And that's a big deal no matter where you are in the world. 

Elis: Uh huh, preach. 

Catherine: Thank you. So Chrisha, I'm gonna ask you to jump in now that you've heard some of this explanation from Elis. What are your thoughts? What have you learned? What are you thinking?

Chrisha: *laughs* Yeah, so our framing of this episode is that Catherine and Elis were doing much of the research, and I have not had space for that. So I'm sort of here as the reactor, going, “There's a very obvious conclusion here.”

Elis: Just saying.

Chrisha: That it's a duck, which is: looks like a duck, smells like a duck, quacks like a duck? I'm not sure if it smells like a duck. *Chrisha and Elis laugh*

Catherine: Walks like a duck. 

Chrisha: There we go! The rogue translator theory, I think, never made sense to anyone. And it just is not in line with dubbing as an art form.

Elis: Perfect. 

Chrisha: It's not as simple as somebody just changed the lines. It’s just so much more complex. And yeah, it's interesting. Five years later, I'm still frustrated. *both Chrisha and Elis laugh* So…

Elis: Same. 

Chrisha: Yeah, yeah.

Elis: And it angered me so much―

Chrisha: I’ll bet. 

Elis: ―hearing that rogue translator thing, because immediately I was like, “That's bush**!” *Chrisha and Catherine burst out laughing* “It's an art form! That's bush**! They would never do something like that.” So I got, I still get, very angry about that. I'm fine. *takes in a deep breath* Ahhh. Deep breath! *Catherine and Elis laugh*

Catherine: Yeah, that’s right.

Chrisha: I think that is Supernatural fandom in a nutshell: “I still get angry sometimes.”

Elis: Yuup.

Catherine: Also deep breathing; remembering to breathe deeply. 

Chrisha: Exactly! And pain laughter. Yes.

Catherine: Yes! 

Chrisha: Supernatural fan starter pack. 

Elis: Every time.

Catherine: I think we just hit the trifecta. *Chrisha and Elis laugh* Oh my gosh.

Elis: Yeeep! 

Catherine: So we originally had this conversation in my book club a couple of months ago, and this was why I wanted Elis to come on. She explained all of this, and my mind blew! I'm Canadian, and we have two official languages here in Canada: French and English. I speak a little bit of French, but officially, we are a bilingual country. So you get a lot of stuff that's translated into French, and then translated into English for the English-speaking people in real time, right, and live TV and so on. So I know a little bit about translation, but I don't understand the industry in terms of commercial work. And so my mind was blown when Elis was saying all of this in book club. And I was like, “ *gasps* We have to get her on the podcast! Because, it does! It throws out this whole idea of somebody going rogue. Thank you, Elis, for explaining all of that, because I think it's really important. Not only is it an art form, not only are there guidelines that they have to follow closely, but there is commercial and contractual weight to the dubbing industry that we just don't understand here in the English-speaking world the way that you do. So I really appreciate you explaining all of that for us so we understand the art form of it, the contractual part of it, the business side of it, and also for the individual actors―

Chrisha: Yeah, the fandom side of it. 

Elis: Absolutely.

Chrisha: It’s so cool! Yeah.

Catherine: ―like, this is a big deal. They follow the English-speaking actor across shows, across potentially even companies, like the original companies. So this is all a really big deal.

Elis: Exactly.

Catherine: And I had never understood that before we had that conversation in book club.

Elis: Yeah! ‘Cause I guess it's not something that, like you mentioned, people from English-speaking countries… You guys don't have to do that, mostly, right?

Catherine: Right.

Elis: Just with materials that come from different countries that are not in English, right? 

Catherine: Right. Yeah, and it's like, we have so much in English that you don't have to watch stuff that's dubbed, unless you really want to. 

Elis: Exactly.

Catherine: So a lot of people can go most of their lives without hearing hardly any dubbing.

Elis: And to us it’s the opposite, right? Like, we do have a lot of things. Brazil specializes basically in soap operas, right? Like our soap operas are, like, everything.

Catherine: Yes.

Elis: *laughs* We do have that material in Portuguese from, like, Brazilian actors acting, not just voice acting, right? 

Catherine: Right.

Elis: But the dubbing industry is so big because most of what we consume, outside of the soap operas and a few movies that get big and stuff like that. People mostly watch Hollywood things, you know? Productions that come directly from the US. And then when cable became a thing, and popularized, we had all these channels with lots of TV shows, And in the beginning, it was like you didn't have a choice. You had to watch it in the original and read the subtitles. But as―

Catherine: Right.

Elis: ―time went on… I cannot remember, but it was, like, probably the beginning of the 2000s, maybe a little earlier. I'm not sure. I was so young. I do not remember exactly. But that's when TV shows got popular, because cable became popular here in Brazil. So they started dubbing these TV shows, too. So the industry grew from just cartoons and movies into TV shows as well. 

Catherine: Okay.

Elis: So it is something that is still very, very, very big. So you can see that to this day, if you want to watch a show, even on cable TV, you can select if you want to watch it in the original or if you want to watch it dubbed. 

Catherine: Right.

Elis: It's optional. You choose, just like in the streaming, right? But on cable TV, you can do that. So most people choose to watch dubbed, because it's easier, you know? 

Catherine: Yeah, that makes sense. 

Elis: Yeah! You don't have to read. You can focus on the action happening in front of you, and not what's being said only, right?

Catherine: That makes sense. 

Elis: So it is something that is very, very big.

Catherine: Yeah. 

Elis: And not only here in Brazil, obviously. Any country that is not English speaking has that. And that's why everybody was so obsessed after this episode. Everybody was so obsessed in checking the dubbing in their own languages, you know? 

Catherine: Yes, yes!

Elis: Because everybody wanted to check, how did they do that in my language. 

Catherine: Right. It's so personal.

Elis: Exactly. And that's why I figured out the bird situation. *Elis and Catherine both laugh*

Catherine: I love that. 

Elis: Because I was like, “Oh, what did they do in our dubbing? Let me check.”

Catherine: That makes so much sense. Okay, speaking of the context: I'm hoping, Chrisha, you can kind of jump in here. You can kind of walk us through the original timeline of stuff that happened, so that we can kind of go back and remember. ‘Cause it's been five years―

Chrisha: Sure!

Catherine ―and a lot happened in a really short amount of time. 

Chrisha: Oh my gosh, truly. I mean, I was just sort of glancing through the timeline that you put together. And first of all, there's a little bit of like, *makes pained noise* 

Catherine: Yes. There was a lot of emotion.

Chrisha: Takes me back. I’m like, “Whoo!” So that deep breathing. 

Elis: *singsong* Trauma. *Catherine bursts out laughing*

Chrisha: But also like―Yeah, for real. Fictional trauma. The ways that when we look at it historically, and we're not in it―we're just going through the timeline. *sighs* How different that is. *laughs* I mean, not that it didn't make sense in a certain way at the time, but I think that there was this sense of, “Are we all collectively hallucinating? What is happening here?” Because it was just so―

Catherine: *empathically breathes* Yes.

Chrisha: ―bonkers!

Elis: Purely insane. *laughs*

Chrisha: You know? And so reading it now I'm just like, “Nope. No. I don't think we were.”

Catherine: No. 

Chrisha: So okay, I'm going to read through the timeline, ‘cause I love a timeline. I love historical context. “Despair” originally aired Thursday, November 5th, 2020. Let us all sit and remember a time during the American presidential election when things felt good. *pain laughs*

Catherine: Yes. Let's also remember that during that moment where the election results were coming in, Destiel trended above the election results.

Chrisha: Mmhm. Mmhm.

Elis: I got the chills. Oh, my God. Just the thought of it.

Chrisha: Yeah, I know. Right? It's like sh**. We need to put a trigger warning on this stuff, I swear.

Elis: I think so. *Chrisha and Elis cackle*

Chrisha: So that was November 5th. Then November 9th, there was the DarkLight online convention where Misha said:

Misha Collins (audio from DarkLight Con 2020): Castiel tells Dean he loves him, and, like, basically makes Destiel canon. So Castiel makes this homosexual declaration of love―

Chrisha: Because Misha was not playing at that point. 

Misha Collins (audio from DarkLight Con 2020): Which is, you know, amazing that that happens. And then he dies right afterward, which plays into a timeless Hollywood trope of kill the gays, which also then, like, pisses off―like we give, and then we take away. 

Chrisha: So Misha was being very direct at that point.

Catherine: Yes.

Chrisha: Because there was a need for that. *laughs*

Catherine: Yup.

Chrisha: Okay, so that was November 9th. Then the various dubs of “Despair” begin coming out within one to two weeks. Then we get to November 19th, when “Carry On” aired. Uh―

Catherine: *makes “aaargh” sound* 

Chrisha: Let's all take a deep breath together.

Catherine and Chrisha: *long, deep, simultaneous breath*

Elis: *singsong* Nothing happened. That does not exist.

Chrisha: Didn't happen. That one was a collective hallucination, as a matter of fact. 

Elis: I was going to say that―*singsong* Exactly. *everyone laughs*

Chrisha: Talk about fictional trauma! So seven days after that, that would have been November 25th, the wee hours, we get the Latin American Spanish dub, with the, “and I, you” moment. Which I will not pronounce in Spanish, because nobody needs to hear that.

Guillermo Rojas as Dean Winchester, official Latin America “The Truth” audio: Y yo a ti, Cas. 

Chrisha: Anyway, the internet exploded. I remember waking up the next day, and just, like― *laughs*

Elis: The screams I scrempt.

Chrisha: And it was just like, “What? What?” So the hashtags―they silenced you; they silenced them―were trending everywhere. The Latin American episode had the original title of “The Truth.” 

Catherine: Which, that was a choice.

Chrisha: Wasn't it just? Wasn't it just. Yeah. Cas saying:

Alejandro Mayen as Castiel, official Latin America “The Truth” audio: Te amo.

Chrisha: ―which is the romantic version of, “I love you,” and then Dean reciprocates. 

Catherine: And I think it's important to talk about the nuance there, just to interject for a second.

Chrisha: Sure. 

Catherine: So in English, you can say I love you and have it mean as a friend or romantically, depending on the context. But in Spanish and other languages, the words, “I love you,” can be different, depending on whether it's platonic or whether it's romantic. So it was a choice for them to have him say “te amo,” which is the romantic version. There's a platonic version of it that they could have said, but they made it explicitly romantic through the word choice. So that's a big deal. Keep going. Sorry.

Chrisha: Yeah, yep. And then Dean reciprocating, saying, “you too.” Also romantic version. Which, I feel like I'm saying, like, “Taylor version.”

Elis: I mean…

Chrisha: ‘The romantic version,’ in parentheses. But the written words say, “Don't do this, Cas.” That's right! There was the difference between the written dub and the spoken dub. Is that―am I remembering correctly? 

Catherine: Yes, yes. 

Chrisha: Uuugh. No wonder we were all feeling nuts. Like, “What even?!?!”

Catherine: Right? I went back and looked and so they have him say, “You too, Cas,” which is “y yo a ti, Cas”―

Elis: Yeah, good.

Catherine:  ―as Jensen, the original actor, is saying, “Don't do this, Cas.” And the translation [in the written transcript] in Spanish…I'm gonna butcher this. Sorry, people who speak Spanish. I apologize.

Chrisha: *laughs* This is why I'm like, “Nope, I'm not even gonna try”

Catherine: “No haga estos, Cass.” So he says, “Don't do this, Cas,” in the written script. But the audio said, basically, “and I you,” “and I love you too, Cas.”

Chrisha: Huh. Again, no wonder we were all feeling…

Catherine: It's―it's crazy! *laughs*

Chrisha: Yeah. Ah, geez. Okay, yeah. So all that happened.

Catherine: And that's not the end of the timeline! *laughs*

Chrisha: No, no. We're―we still got plenty of―plenty to go. 

Elis: Yeah.

Chrisha: So…so like. Ohhhkay. Mmhmm. So this is all in the month of November, still, but then in that same day. So that dropped at, I don't know, 1am … what? Eastern? Was when that Latin American dub dropped. 

Catherine: That was probably Atlantic time. So it was probably right at midnight, Eastern Standard.

Chrisha: Yeah, that makes sense. And so then later that day―I'm sitting here like, “That was the same day?” That felt like we lived a thousand lifetimes in that 24 hours, ‘cause I remember it clearly. 

Elis: *giggles* True.

Chrisha: Misha comes onto Twitter, does the “rogue translator” bit. 

Misha Collins audio from Twitter, November 25th, 2020: Hi, I just wanted to take a moment to explain there is no conspiracy, there never was an alternate ending of episode 15-18 when Cas said, 'I love you'." There apparently was a rogue translator. I also, I feel proud of the ending of Supernatural. I feel like it was intentionally inclusive and a celebration of someone expressing their truth and having good things come of it.  Castiel is not a character that plays into any insidious trope of exclusion in Hollywood. Castiel, on the other hand, in my opinion, and in ― *chuckles* ― in my opinion, Castiel’s declaration of love was done of his own volition, with full knowledge of the consequences of those actions. He went on to rebuild heaven, and his action literally saved the world. So by expressing who he really was, by saying, saying this, by making this declaration of love, he literally ends up saving the world. And if that’s not something to celebrate, I don’t know what is! I’m a little irked. That’s my irked face. I love you all, and I love your passion, I wish we could just take a moment to celebrate the good of this show. Like, I’m sad it’s gone. It was 15 years of the forces of good triumphing over the forces of evil. Was it perfect? No. But I think the world is better off because of it. And I’m sticking to my guns.

Catherine: Can you read the text that accompanied it?

Chrisha: Yeah. So he said, “I'm seeing a lot of commentary on the ending of Supernatural and recent Spanish dub, and I'm disheartened to see that there are a lot of misconceptions that are making many in our family feel unheard and unsupported. So I am calling an SPN Family meeting to sort a few things out for the record.” Ummm. *sighs heavily* So this is after the finale. People are having lots of feelings, you and I included. There is so much discourse. There is so much anger. So Misha comes in, drops this, and then it is not long before he comes back and is like, “Oh, yep, that was a terrible idea.” [Misha’s words from a Twitter reply follow in quotes] “I see lots of comments about how tone deaf my video is. I agree, and I feel sick. I want to delete it, but I think I will erase all of your important comments & I feel like I should own my ignorance. I've been wrestling with this all night & day. Don't know what to do. Sorry.”

Catherine: So this was the next day.

Chrisha: *agreeing* The next day. Uh-huh.

Catherine: The video comes out on November 25th, and his apology comes on November 26th.

Chrisha: Mmhmm. Yeah. I remember him changing his tone, or changing the way that he was engaging with it, very quickly. And honestly, so quickly that I was like, “Hmm.” *Catherine chuckles*

Elis: I mean, my theory is that he got a call. You know, like, “Hey, your fans are going crazy on the internet again. Do something about it.” 

Chrisha: *bursts out laughing* “Again!”

Elis: And then he came up with that: this idea of… They must have told him, like, “Oh, it was a rogue translator that did that. It wasn't anything else.” Right? You just had to run with it.

Chrisha: I mean, ultimately, there was so much around this, and I'm gonna keep going with the timeline. But Catherine and I, you and I came back again and again, to: “This feels strange.” Like, all the things. Not just this, but all the things. “This feels strange.” We will probably never know what actually happened, but, like, ummm, probably not face value, would be what my gut says. So―

Catherine: Yeah.

Chrisha: ―you know, that said, Misha engaged a lot on that post. He really heard. He seemed open to listening and affirming a lot. And that was, I think, really needed for the fandom in that moment.

Catherine: That meant a lot. 

Chrisha: It did.

Catherine: Just to go into what he said in the video―

Chrisha: Yeah.

Catherine: ―so he's, like, coming in, and he's being so definitive. It felt weird, right? It felt weird. 

Elis: Absolutely.

Catherine: And then he goes into defending the whole―he's like, “It's not ‘bury your gays!’” even though he just said a few days earlier that it was ‘bury your gays.’ He's like, “Castiel is not a character that plays into any insidious trope of exclusion in Hollywood.”

Elis: *makes tired sighing sound*

Chrisha: And we also know for sure at this point that there was alternate endings, and that COVID stopped the big bar scene. I mean, they've described it in detail, what it was supposed to be with, with Kansas playing and everybody being there, and that would have hit different. Would it have been okay? No, I don't think I would have been okay with Dean being dead. *Catherine pain laughs*

Elis: Absolutely not. 

Chrisha: But would it have been better if he ended at the bar with Cas? Yeah! Like, yeah, I think it would have been ever so slightly less traumatic. So, you know―

Catherine: Yeah, I agree. And let's remember too that they finished filming, right before COVID lockdowns happened, of “Despair.”

Chrisha: Yeah. Like, that day.

Catherine: That day. So they recorded all of it. And then it sat from, I think it was March, until it aired in November.

Chrisha: Yeah, November. 

Catherine: And so my conspiracy theory―I'm putting on my tin hat here *Chrisha and Elis chuckle* ―has always been that, like, somebody up the ladder in Warner Brothers, The CW, whatever aspect of it it was, got nervous during that, “We're all gonna sit home in quarantine,” time, and was like, “I don't like this anymore. We're gonna change it.” That's my conspiracy theory. But yeah―

Chrisha: *in a shrugging kind of tone* I dunno.

Catherine: ―we do know that there were changes made―like, significant changes made, to “Carry On.”

Chrisha: Mmhmm. Yeah.

Catherine: So, yeah, he also says that he's irked. 

Chrisha: Yeah. 

Catherine: He “has [his] irked face.” So the whole thing felt, like, very paternalistic and weird and scripted. Do you remember what your reaction was to everything, Elis, with that video? Do you remember?

Elis: *dryly* Yeah, it was the time I started screaming at Misha. *Catherine and Chrisha burst out laughing* Like, “Stop! That's not how dubbing works!” Yeah, that's exactly when I started screaming and hitting my head against the wall ‘cause, “oh my God, buddy, tell me you don't understand about something, without telling me you don't understand about something!” I'm fine. I'm fine. I swear.

Chrisha: That's relatable. *Elis laughs*

Catherine: Thank you.

Elis: *laughs* Yeah, he got me very angry. Yeah.

Catherine: Yeah. And I think the turnaround from when he said that to when he started apologizing was so quick that that was interesting, too?

Chrisha: *emphatically* So fast. Mmhmm.

Elis: Yeah! That's why I think it was some kind of PR thing. It felt like he didn't know what was actually happening. Somebody told him, “Say this,” and then after that, then he started checking what was actually happening.

Catherine: Right.

Elis: That's, that's what I feel about it.

Catherine: Agreed.

Chrisha: It was a strange time.

Elis: Ugh, it was crazy.

Chrisha: For sure. 

Catherine: Yeah. Yeah. All right, reins back over to you. Keep going with the timeline.

Chrisha: Okay, so that same day that Misha then was on Twitter, apologizing and interacting, Distractify’s Gina Vaynshteyn―I'm unclear if I'm pronouncing that correctly―but she states, one fan, who claims to be an "ex-dubbing translator," says that's not possible. "Translators CAN'T change the script they're given. We usually can adapt (and like, a TON of 'I love you' become 'te quiero' or 'I care for you' not, 'te amo' which is like, 100% romantic.) So that 'And I you, Cas'? (Y yo a ti, cas) is legal."” So making that romantic would be a legal tweak. Am I understanding that right? 

Catherine: Yeah, it would be following the guidelines.

Chrisha: Okay.

Elis: Yep. 

Chrisha: So that was November 26th. So then November 30th, four days later, Popsugar’s Mekishana Pierre opines that, “It seems unlikely that Dean's response to Cas, reciprocating his declaration came from a ‘rogue translator,’ especially considering the hoops I assume productions have to go through for dubbing. The idea that someone just decided to throw in that wayward line”―love the use of 'wayward'―“without anyone pointing out that it was wrong is very hard to believe. It feels more likely that the line was included in the original script and was changed during editing or reshoots (‘Despair’ was the last episode shot before production shut down in March due to COVID) to either 1. keep fans from misinterpreting what production felt like was a familial sentiment (Dean refers to Cas as family in the finale episode *Chrisha deep breathes while Catherine snickers*) or 2. go with what they thought would be more emotionally impactful. Or maybe there is a rogue Destiel translator who said, “Eff this noise, these boys belong together!” Which would also be relatable. 

Elis: *laughs*

Catherine: *snickers again*

Chrisha: So then in December, that interview comes out. There's big kerfuffle about it.

Catherine: So this interview that we're going to be talking about is an interview with the voice actor for Latin America who voices Dean. This interview comes out in December 2020. Now, I remember people talking about this interview. Do either of you remember? 

Elis: Yeah, I actually saw it. 

Catherine: You saw it? 

Chrisha: Oh, wow.

Elis: I remember that back in that specific day, I remember listening to, like, an audio of it. But it was very noisy. I couldn't understand very well. So I was like, *makes frustrated sound*. And then right after you had that transcript on Tumblr.

Catherine: Of “Carry On”?

Elis: Yeah.

Catherine: Okay. 

Elis: And then I completely forgot about it after that, *laughs* until I remembered again and talked to you guys about it, yeah.

Catherine: Yeah. And now looking back at it, I was kind of wondering: why didn't we podcast about this at the time?

Chrisha: Umm. *Catherine laughs* Because I think there was a fire hose of stuff.

Catherine: Yeah.

Chrisha: And I think that you and I went line by line in “Carry On,” and were done. *Elis chuckles*

Catherine: Yes.

Chrisha: We did that, and then we were burnt to a crisp. And I never wanted to talk about Supernatural ever again.

Catherine: Yes.

Elis: *laughs* And I guess back in those days, this tale was going canon every five minutes. So it was, like, too much information after the other.

Chrisha: *emphatically* Mmhmm. Fire Hose.

Catherine: Yes. 

Elis: Ugh, it was crazy. I love it. 

Catherine: It was, but it was also, like, really overwhelming. 

Elis: Exactly.

Chrisha: *lets out slow breath*

Catherine: And then this came out, and I remember people going, “Oh, he said that it was sort of like this rogue translator idea.” And so I think I just went, “Ugh, f*** that,” and just like, was like, “I can't deal with this right now. I'm gonna ignore it.” 

Chrisha: Yeah.

Catherine: And so I think that's what I did at the time. And I think you're right, Chrisha, we were … oof. And I remember, also―thank you for mentioning the script for “Carry On,” Elis, because I remember that coming out, and printing it out, and looking at all the redacted stuff. 

Elis: Oh, that was so annoying.

Chrisha: Mmhmm.

Catherine: Yeah, and wanting to go through it with the podcast and look at the context of what was actually on the screen versus what was in the script. And we were so fried, like, it was so emotional. It really was. I mean, we can laugh and joke about it now, but at the time, it was really rough, emotionally. 

Chrisha: Yeah, it was. 

Catherine: I had a really, really hard time. And we talk about trauma in a joking way, but it was traumatic. 

Elis: It really was!

Catherine: Yeah.

Chrisha: Well, COVID was also happening. We were in a societal trauma, in context of this fictional trauma. So this was, like, the comfort we were looking to. And it got absolutely just brutalized. And so then it was like, “Oh, this one safe place in this giant trauma situation globally has now also been just, like, decimated.”

Elis: Yep.

Chrisha: So it was just cascading levels of trauma. 

Elis: Yep.

Catherine: Yes, yes. Absolutely, it was. Oof. Anyway. So I think that's why we didn't look at this at the time, and that's why I'm really glad that we're looking at it now. We have some distance emotionally. It'll never … like, there will be no peace, but―but we can look at it with a little bit more emotional distance and go from there. So now let's get into the different people who are part of this interview. The convention where this happened in December of 2020, was called HarleyCon. And it seems to be, like, a very unofficial convention. So there were three people who were the hosts. One was an American woman who only spoke English, so she didn't understand most of what was going on, and she did not have a name on the screen other than Harley. And they were dressed up in these costumes, probably because it was called HarleyCon. So she was dressed up as Harlequin from Batman. And then there was the second host, who was a LatinX guy, and his name was Rolando, but we don't have a last name for him. And he was fluent in English and Spanish, and based on the little bit that he did speak, I'm guessing he was probably American as well. He had a very North American kind of accent when he was speaking English. And then there was the translator, Ada, who I'll tell you a little bit more about in a second. So there were three hosts in this really low-key, unofficial convention. They were, like, super excited, because they had 25 people watching. And so I think it was quite a small, unofficial thing. And then there was the guest who we’ll be talking about a lot. The original video was on Facebook. That no longer exists. So, when you click on the link for the original Facebook thing, it's gone. However, Shirley Tang, who is @egoismht on YouTube, uploaded a copy of the original video with the interview with the voice actor for Dean Winchester. So thank you, Shirley Tang, we love you. *Elis chuckles* This exists nowhere else, and we're very, very glad that it exists. And thank you, Elis, for finding it and sharing it with me so I could kind of go through it line by line. 

Elis: You are welcome. 

Catherine: Thank you. And then on Tumblr, teamironmanforever created a very fluent English translation of some of the main highlights of the video. So, they leave out a lot of back and forth, and a lot of explanation, and so on, but they kind of have the highlights of stuff. So that's kind of like the context of the where and the hosts and stuff, and where we can find it, and we'll include links and all of that in our show notes. The person who's being interviewed is Guillermo Rojas. He's also known as Memo, and he is the voice of Dean Winchester from seasons 12 to 15. So they had somebody different before him. I think all of these people wear a lot of hats and do a lot of different things, but some highlights are: his big breakout role was Jack Bauer on 24. He's also done Bobby Nash on 911. He's been in the business for 25 years. He's also a sound engineer, a sound editor, a producer, a director, an actor, and a talent seeker. So, like, this guy knows the business, and he has worked with the director on 911, as well as Supernatural. So the director is Adrian Sanchez Fogarty y Castro, also known as Adrian Fogarty. So they'll be talking about Fogarty a lot in the original interview, and he was the Latin American director of “Despair.” So he is also a voice actor, a translator and adapter, and he worked on Supernatural from seasons 13 to 15. He did so much that I could spend literally half an hour just reading out his credits. But some highlights are Lucifer, Star Trek: Discovery, Young Sheldon, Veronica Mars, 911, It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia, and so on. Sadly, I found out that he passed in 2024 in April of a heart attack. I was sad to learn that. And then the last person who's really important: Her name was Adalisa Zaráte, and she goes by Ada. And she was a graphic artist, and she created comics. It sounds like, from what she said, she also worked in the industry, but kind of, like, at a lower level than Memo.

Elis: Yes. 

Catherine: You got that too, Elis?

Elis: Yes, uh-huh. Exactly.

Catherine: Yeah. And so she's the translator from this HarleyCon interview. Sadly, I learned that she also died, not very long ago, in September 2025 from health complications. So two of the main figures that we're going to be talking about have sadly passed, and that…that kind of hit hard when I was―to be honest, when I was prepping for this. Now I just wanted to go through some of the logistical problems when looking at this interview. First of all, Ada isn't a professional live translator, so she was doing this as a fan, as somebody who is really excited about the show. So what ended up happening was that she asked most of her questions of Memo in Spanish only, without translating it into English for the English-only speaking people. So she would translate his answers but not her question. So you had to do a lot of inferring. She also, at a few pivotal moments, added in her own commentary, without distinguishing between what she was saying and Memo’s actual words. So that brought some confusion into the picture. And she often forgot to translate whole sections of what he said entirely, because she was just―like, she was having such a good time. Like, she was enjoying herself, she was excited. She was a fan. You could tell she was kind of fangirling about Memo a little bit.

Elis: Yeah.

Catherine: And so she just got really caught up in it. And so there were big sections where she didn't translate what he said at all. So that is a complication. I want to kind of caveat that by saying that, like I mentioned before, I live in Canada. We have two official languages: French and English. And when there are speeches given, especially by government officials, they'll often switch back and forth between French and English. And even the live translators―that is their job to translate in real time for a listening audience, on the news or whatever it is―they'll sometimes hesitate or restate things. So like, even for people who that is their job, that is what they are paid to do: it's not easy. And people can make mistakes and kind of hesitate. So I'm not meaning to be overly critical of Ada. I just wanted to, like, kind of point out some of the limitations when we're figuring stuff out. Does that make sense? 

Elis: Absolutely. 

Chrisha: Yup. 

Catherine: Okay. teamironmanforever’s translation on Tumblr skips a lot of important details. So it's meant to be a highlight reel only, not a complete translation. And so the impression that you can get from just reading that can be a little bit misleading, versus the overall translation. Also, Google Translate is not great. *Catherine, Chrisha, and Elis chuckle* When I was working on stuff, I was working from auto-captioned Spanish from YouTube. So we all know that auto-caption on YouTube, even if it's in the original language―Like, when I'm looking at it in English, they'll get stuff wrong all the time.

Elis: Yeah. 

Catherine: *chuckles* So compounding Google Translate and then auto-caption from YouTube: that is a limitation. Finally, none of us speak Spanish. So anyone who does speak Spanish, if you have any additional insights after you listen to this, please reach out to us. We are @thefangirlbiz, that's B I zee or B I zed, on Bluesky. So you can find us there: reach out, send us a message, DM us, if you have any additional insights, and you are a Spanish speaker. And then the last thing that I have to say is because Fogarty has passed, and he was the director, we can't ask him any questions. And I think he would have been the guy that I really wanted to talk to. So those are kind of the limitations―which are significant. *laughs at the understatement* So that being said, what I did was I went through the key parts of everything. I kind of divided things out. I would do a Google Translate of everything based on the auto caption. I would give Ada’s English translation, and then I would give―if it was available, if it was included―I would give teamironmanforever’s translation. And then I would include the original Spanish. So I did that for most of this. There are 12 pages of stuff to go over. *Catherine and Elis chuckle* So we're probably going to do that in a Part 2. I think this will be a Part 1, and then we'll go back and do a Part 2, where we actually go through all of the details. I think, yeah, we've, we've been talking for―but it's been important. All of this setup is important. *Catherine and Elis giggle* So―I feel like we're leaving on a cliffhanger, but I think it's important to really look closely at the actual script and talk about it, and we can do that in Part 2. So before we wrap for this episode, I wanted to just share some of what Ada says before Memo comes on. She talks about her understanding of the dubbing industry, and I wanted to compare that, Elis, with what you understand of the dubbing industry in Brazil. 

Elis: Absolutely.

Catherine: So she states that most dubs, you get an English video to work from, not an English script. So do you know anything about that in Brazil? Is that kind of the same, or…?

Elis: That part I've never heard anything about. 

Catherine: Okay.

Elis: I'm not sure if it's the same thing for Brazil. She mentions that right before talking to Memo, right? And just by checking the interview, I'm not sure if what they got was, like―if the translation was made from the video. It sounds like they got a written script actually, you know? 

Catherine: Yes, and that is part of what I want to get into in this second episode―

Elis: Perfect.

Catherine: ―because I think that's really important.

Elis: Perfect. 

Catherine: When we were talking―so… *both giggle* So when I was talking to you, I was like, “I'm confused.” 

Elis: Yes!

Catherine: And you were like, “So am I.” And when I was talking to Chrisha, when she was looking at the highlight translation by teamironmanforever, what did you say, Chrisha?

Chrisha: *dryly* I am confused. 

Catherine: Yes.

Elis: Everybody's confusion! 

Chrisha: *all laugh* That's pretty much it, yeah. 

Elis: Yeah, I get it.

Catherine: We were all confused. And so in Part 2, I want to kind of delve into why I think we're all confused by looking at the interview itself very carefully. 

Elis: Perfect.

Catherine: And I think some of that is surrounding the question of: did they get an English video to work from, or an English script? So that is a question that I think, like―let's hold on to that going into Part 2. Okay. 

Elis: Perfect. 

Catherine: So then Ada says the videos that they typically get… She says that for most dubs, you get an English video―not all, but most. The videos are then sent to a translator, typically in blocks of about five episodes. Do you have any insight about that part of things, Elis, from the Brazil side of things?

Elis: You actually have a difference depending on the kind of show, right? Nowadays we have more, like, streaming. So most streaming shows, usually they are releasing the entire show in one day, right? 

Catherine: Ahhh, yes.

Elis: So they would get the entire show beforehand, would do all the translation, all the dubbing, and then release all over the world at the same time, okay?

Catherine: Right.

Elis: That's what they do in these circumstances. But that's not Supernatural.

Catherine: Right!

Elis: Supernatural is old school. So they would get, like she mentioned, some episodes. Because as the episodes are airing in the US, you have a two week difference from when they start airing in other countries. For example, in Brazil, it's usually one or two weeks after that.

Catherine: Yes. So it would make sense, given that it's only a couple of weeks, that, like, they would have gotten this stuff before the US version airs.

Elis: Exactly.

Catherine: Okay.

Elis: So they received that. They would start working on it: the translation, then the dubbing, and in about two weeks, then they release the show. They start showing, you know, on our TVs.

Catherine: Yes.

Elis: Shows like Supernatural, as it was airing, they were recording them, right? They were shooting the show while it was being aired, right? 

Catherine: Right. 

Elis: That's why you cannot have all of the episodes―

Catherine: Right. 

Elis: ―done all together, because they don't wait until the show is over to then dub. No, they don't do that. They release it in about two weeks, three weeks, usually.

Catherine: After it airs in the US.

Elis: Yes. If the show is famous―and Supernatural was big in Brazil―that's what happens, because people don't want to wait. People don't want to get spoiled by something on social media, right? So usually you get a little bit of a delay, let's call it.

Catherine: Yes. 

Elis: Usually two, three weeks, but it was never much more than that. In my head, what makes sense is sending a written script so they can start working on the translation.

Catherine: Yes.

Elis: And then when you're dubbing―because you would have, I mean, three, four weeks, maybe, if you're lucky, to do all this work that I mentioned: dubbing, adapting the script to the mouth movement, editing the sound, checking everything about the voice acting part, right? That takes time. So I would imagine that they would be receiving these things beforehand. Because, otherwise―can you imagine doing all of that in like two seconds? Because you need to edit the audio after that. You need to clear everything and match with the original sounds, and match to the music on the background and everything, you know? So I would imagine that is hard to do, and it probably takes very long hours. So―

Catherine: Yeah.

Elis: ―it would be insane if they received a video copy of it and had to translate, adapt, record, check, edit all of that in like two weeks. That would be insane to me, personally.

Catherine: I agree. And so thinking about it: even in the English version, there are various iterations of a script. There will be kind of the pre-production script, and then they'll make adaptations based on limitations that come up during or right before the actual recording of the episode starts. I know that for a while there were people on Twitter who were collecting the different versions of the scripts in English, and then, of course, there's post production and the editing and all of that kind of stuff that happens. So there are lots of different iterations of even the English version, right? 

Elis: Exactly. Can you imagine if they had all these scripts on a pile and then they sent it to the studios for them to record, and whoopsie daisies! We sent a different version of “The Truth” to Mexico. *sing-song* “Oh nooo! A rogue translator!” See? See? Things are―*bursts out laughing* Sorry. The tin hat is on. I'm sorry. 

Catherine: Listen, no, I'm with you. I think that's a fair inference. Chrisha, I want to pull you in: as we're talking about this, what are you thinking? *Elis and Catherine giggle*

Chrisha: Obviously, there are a lot of different versions of a lot of different things. I would wonder if a post-production copy of the show that is done, but just doesn't have the music and the digital effects and whatever, could still be sent so that there is video for someone doing a job to work from?

Catherine: Okay.

Elis: Yeah, maybe?

Catherine: That's fair. That's a good question. *whispers tin-hattishly* Thank you for grounding us. *Elis laughs*

Chrisha: There's―I know. There's just, there's so many things that we don't know.

Elis: And we'll probably never know.

Chrisha: *agreeing* And we'll never know―and like, I know that listening to the official Supernatural podcast and listening to how all of the things work behind the scenes? I have learned a lot that I'm like, “Oh, I would have never thought of that.” So is there stuff that feels very strange about this side of things? Like, yes. But I guess what I always come back to is that there are so many people that touch these episodes of television.

Catherine: Yes. 

Chrisha: How does a finished product get through as many people that have to touch it and approve it―

Elis: *exuding cat in the cream* Exactly. 

Chrisha: ―with something in it that's not supposed to be there. That's the part I always come back to. I don't know the ‘how.’

Elis: Exactly!

Chrisha: I have no idea the ‘how,’ ‘cause I don't work in that industry, and there's just so much. But how did that make it to a television if it wasn't supposed to be there? That's the part that is hard to wrap my brain around.

Elis: Mmhmmm. Exactly. 

Catherine: Agreed.

Elis: That's why the tin hat always gets put back on! *laughs* 

Catherine: *literally chortles* Yes. So, uh, going, going back to what Ada says. So she says that most dubs you get an English video. Whatever iteration that is, whether that was actually what happened here or not, we'll talk about that more in the next episode. Then the videos are sent to a translator, and she says, “This is the most important thing.” She said that the translator wants to make the words in Spanish match the movements of the character's mouth as he's speaking the original English lines, right? And she says, that's the most important thing.

Chrisha: Boy, that sounds hard!

Catherine: *emphatically* Yeah.

Elis: It is.

Chrisha: That just sounds so difficult.

Elis: It is, because it's a totally different language. 

Catherine: Yeah. And she says at one point, that was the thing that she hated most about her job when she was working in this industry. So then she says: after the initial translation is made, it's sent to the director. So in that case, this would be Adrian Fogarty. And he or she makes any additional changes that they need, and gathers all the voice actors necessary for that episode. Then each actor records their dubbed lines by themselves.

Elis: Yeah. So I guess it depends on maybe the work they are doing? Like, are they interacting in the scene? That may be a factor. Or sometimes they just have the possibility of, “Oh, I can only do that at this time, on this day,” because you have other things to do as a voice actor, right? So maybe that's true. In some cases, they just get together in the studio and record it all together. From what I know, because we have some very fun pictures with the Brazilian voice actors for Dean and Cas. 

Catherine: Okaaaaay. *Chrisha chuckles*

Elis: They were together. They work with so many different shows and stuff that I would imagine at some point they would work together. I mean, on the same studio, right? 

Chrisha: Like, in real time, yeah. 

Elis: Doing the work all together. 

Chrisha: Yeah, I've seen both. 

Elis: So this is the thing. I guess it depends on the availability of the actors and the necessity of the studio. I guess it really does depend on a lot of things. 

Catherine: Okay, so this was important. Thank you, Elis for saying that, because Ada makes it sound very definitive. 

Elis: Oh yeah, no.

Catherine: The voice actors dub their lines by themselves. But that's not actually the case!

Chrisha: Huh!

Elis: I guess, maybe… “By themselves.” Maybe she tried to say that each has, like, a specific booth, you know?

Catherine: Ahhhhhhh, okay. Yup!

Elis: I don't know, maybe something like that. Because, yeah, I've seen videos of different kinds of recordings and stuff like that, where they were together, you know, at the same time, in the same studio, stuff like that. Yeah.

Catherine: Okay, thank you. Thank you both! This is―this is important. Okay. Now here's the last thing that I want to end with before we wrap for today. After everything is recorded―so this is after the initial translation from the English to the Spanish by the translator, and it goes to the director, and they make the changes that they need to make, gather all the voice actors and everything's recorded―she says this: that it's then sent to the client to review before it is put on the air. Thoughts? From either of you? *Elis giggles*

Chrisha: That makes sense to me. I think everything has to go through a network, doesn't it? I mean, I feel like…I feel like everything has to get reviewed before it gets put on TV. 

Catherine: Yeah.

Elis: But of course, it was a rogue translator. See? See? See? See the vision. *Catherine and Elis laugh* That's why it makes me so angry, you know, because it makes, like, a total of zero sense to say something like that. They need to be approved, you know?

Catherine: Yes. 

Elis: Like, that's crazy to me!

Catherine: Yes. And so it's not that the client gives it to the people, and then they do whatever they want to do, and then it goes on the air. The client gives it to the local company, for whatever country or region. Then they do the work, then they send it back for approval, and then it goes to air.

Chrisha: Yeah.

Elis: If not a rogue translator, someone at the CW, right? They f***ed up! 

Catherine: Right? Whether it was a regional person for the company, or whether it was the company itself, we don't know, but somebody official was like, “Yeah, that's cool.”

Elis: Somebody official f***ed up, *Catherine laughs* if they didn't want that to be aired. They f***ed up, not the translator/director in this case.

Catherine: That's right. Let's just say―right now, let's stop putting the blame on the rogue translator. *Catherine and Chrisha chuckle*

Elis: Yes, it's impossible―in my head, that's completely impossible that he just decided, “You know what? I kind of like these two together. Let's―let's make it official here. Mmm, now kiss! My job, that's my job!” *makes frustrated sound* It pisses me off! *Chrisha and Catherine laugh*

Catherine: That's right, that's right. All right. So, Chrisha, I feel like we've learned a lot today from Elis.

Chrisha: Yeah! Mmhmm. For sure! 

Catherine: What are your kind of final thoughts before we wrap for today?

Chrisha: I think that the idea of a rogue translator never made sense, because I think the idea that one creator has quite that much power is not in line with anything that makes any kind of sense in that industry. Like, even as someone on the complete outside: obviously, so many people are involved―

Catherine: It's so collaborative. Yes.

Chrisha: ―in creating. 

Elis: Yup!

Chrisha: One of the things that Supernatural is kind of known for is recognizing all of the creative folks: how much collaboration there is. They always have given a spotlight and a voice to, “it's not just the actors that do this. It is the writers and the camera folks and the cinematographers and the music folks and the set design and the costumes and the makeup and-and-and-and-and.” And so like, the idea that it's like, “Oh yeah. It was just this one person that decided to make a choice that, like, went all the way through.” I don't think it ever made sense, but I think it's really helpful to put it in [the] context of that part of the industry that we don't know as much about. And just understanding how deeply creative and collaborative that part of things is, as well. Knowing that, like, Jensen just has a guy that is his Spanish mirror―that's so cool. It's acting the character, but it's acting as-Jensen-as-the-character, which seems, frankly, harder in a lot of ways. So it's just fascinating to kind of put it all together, I think.

Catherine: Yeah. Yeah. And it's big implications, right? Because, like, once you get put on an actor like Jensen, you follow them. You follow them all the way through. So I think that's important context, too, for the pressure that people like Memo, Guillermo Rojas, might be feeling in interviews like this. At the time this was recorded The Boys was in the works, right? 

Elis: Yeah. 

Catherine: So he knew that there would be possibly further roles for him to play as-Jensen-as-whatever-character. So I think that's an important thing too, to look at the context. This interview happens after the 'rogue translator' stuff. It happens after the general divide in the fandom between, “The ending was great! The ending sucked! It was platonic! It was romantic!” All of this stuff is happening. And this voice actor, it's not just about this one role, it's about his career through Jensen.

Elis: Exactly.

Chrisha: Yeah.

Catherine: Yeah. So I think that's important context for us to think about when we go into the actual interview, as well. Because spoilers: there was a reason that we were all confused. *all chuckle* And I think we'll tease that out next time. All right, any additional thoughts, Elis, before we wrap this episode? 

Elis: Don't think so. No. 

Catherine: Chrisha, anything that you want to add before we wrap? 

Chrisha: Nope, I think I'm good. 

Catherine: Okay. All right, so we will wrap there. There will be a Part 2 where we actually go into the interview. *sighs* All of that lead up, *Catherine and Elis chuckle* and we're gonna stop here. So you can message us and stay up to date on the latest on our Bluesky, which is @TheFangirlBiz, that's B-I-Zee or B-I-Zed depending on where you live in the world, .bsky.social. Or you can just search for us on @TheFangirlBIz on Bluesky. We're currently only using our lowest tier of Ko-fi, but you can always join us at that bottom tier of $1 a month and join our lovely Discord group. So I host a weekly social hour on Friday evenings, and we have so much fun together. It's a great group of people. So I want to thank you again, Elis, for being our guest today and for our next episode. You'll be coming back. Thank you for your time. You are amazing. We learned so much, and I think you've been really good throughout our chat today about being clear where you're inferring things versus knowing things. So I've appreciated that as we've been talking. You've been really clear about that. And everyone at home, listening around the world, wherever you are, we will see you again next time, and until then, carry on Wayward Friends. We love you! Bye!

Chrisha: Bye!

Elis: Bye!

Outro Instrumental Rock Music: “Play the Game” by VooDoo Blooze

Outtake:

Chrisha: Uh…that says, “Talk.” I’m not supposed to read that.

Catherine: Nope.

Chrisha: That’s a prompt, is what that is.

Catherine: That’s a prompt. That’s a prompt, sorry.

Elis: *giggles*

Chrisha: *laughs* I’m doing really well, thank you. *cackles*

Elis: *giggles some more*

Catherine: That’s okay. That’s okay.

*sad instrumental music*

Latin American Dean Winchester: ¿Por qué esto suena a despedida?

Latin American Castiel: Porque si fue. Te amo.

Latin American Dean Winchester: Y yo a ti, Cas.

*sad instrumental music*